Yule Georgieva: Jenny, thank you so much for joining me. I'm very excited to have you on the podcast.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Thanks, Yule. It's great to see you again, and I'm so excited to talk about a topic that we both love so much. 

Yule Georgieva: We do love this so much. So let's dive right into the wonderful world of South African wine. So, as our listeners may have guessed by your accent, you are South African, but you're not just a South African, you're a South African Cape Wine Master. So, why don't you explain a little bit about what that is? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: So, a Cape Wine Master is South Africa's highest qualification for wine. You could say it's similar to the British MW. It's not similar to a sommelier in terms of we don't do any service in our examinations, but we look at the world of wine and winemaking, viticulture, spirits, a deep dive into brandy, and then white and red wines from all over the world. And it involves theoretical papers to write, so there's four three-hour papers you need to write. There's four tasting exams, and there's a dissertation and then there's a presentation that you have to give to fellow wine professionals to make sure that they kind of test you and grill you and make sure you know your stuff, but you have to pick an interesting topic and present it. 

Yule Georgieva: So basically something you do on a weekend after a couple of glasses of wine, right?

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Now, it was really interesting because I was working full time at the time when I was graduating and for my brandy exam, I don't personally drink brandy, and the exam was at 9 o'clock in the morning. So I tried tasting, getting my brain into 9 o'clock in the morning and I couldn't help gagging. So then I started getting up at 6 in the morning and tasting through some examples to condition my brain that when the exam came around that I would be fine. And my mother used to come over and just laugh at me and just think, where has the world gone? And my daughter is tasting brandy at six in the morning. 

Yule Georgieva: Well, there are worse things to do, but yeah, brandy at 9 a.m. doesn't seem like the, ideally it would have been MCC or something, right? That's a day doable. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: That's a regular day for us. 

Yule Georgieva: But so you're not just a Cape wine master. Tell us a little bit about the other connection you have to the South African wine scene.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I was born into the South African wine industry. My mom, originally Canadian, came from Alberta. My dad in Greece, Mykonos, he had a wine farm at the time in Stellenbosch, but he was selling the grapes because there was very strict laws against who could make wine, a form of prohibition, a form of state control over liquor. And so when him and my mom married, she moved obviously to South Africa and as the laws started to relax a bit, she realized that making wine was the obvious solution. So she did have a degree in chemistry, but no winemaking whatsoever. And so she looked at all these wonderful grapes. My dad had the foresight at the time to be planting international varietals like Cabernet, as opposed to what they were planting at the time, which was all for bulk wine and distilling wine in South Africa. They made their first vintage in 1984. That was their first official vintage, and before that it was just kind of moonshine, like making a flipping sale. But the first official vintage was 1984, but they forgot to get the actual license. So the first vintage officially was 1985, but they launched two wines at that time, and one was considered non-vintage because the license wasn't here. So that one was in Stenebosch. I was born there and so grew up in the wine industry. I originally studied food at the Cour d'Horlo and then after I did my wine mustards and never looked back. Still haven't looked back to this day. 

Yule Georgieva: So let's delve a little bit into South Africa and how it fits within the broader wine world. So why should collectors, our primary audience, why should they care about South African wine? Because you spoke about this history of bulk wine. I think some people probably associate South African wine still to this day with Two Oceans and those types of brands. But how does South Africa fit into collecting and where does it fit in that world today? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Well, firstly, people may see South Africa as a new producing country because after apartheid and sanctions were lifted, only in the 90s were South African wines available. And because South African wines had not been on the world market, they weren't competing internationally. So even when they released onto the market in 92, they weren't that good. So it was only really after 2000 that some wines started, it really started mushrooming then with some real quality and innovative stuff. But South Africa is not new as a wine producing country. It was established as a trading post by the Dutch in 1632 and in 1654 the first vines were planted and in 1659 the first wine was made. 

Yule Georgieva: So I think we can agree it is not a new producing country, other than Bordeaux in that sense, correct? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: It is, but there's been a lot, obviously a political change and things that had kept South Africa during some of those years not on the world stage. And we couldn't import some wines and we couldn't export them. And I always say to people that are learning to taste wine or make wine even, you have to know what the best wines in the world taste like in order to make the best wines. And so if you're not getting that exposure, you are a little bit limited. So it was only, as I say, in the 2000s that some amazing innovators and more quality started coming about as the markets opened. So as I said, we're not that new, but it might feel new. So your question about why should people collect South African wine, it's a word that people hate, especially collectors, value. You know, we all feel that spending more makes you happier, and that's great. So then I'm saying, spend more on a South African wine. Go top dollar, buy the $100, buy the $150 South African wines. They really are worth it, and we have put some of those wines in lineups against wines that are triple or quadruple the price, and the South African wines have really shown to be outstanding. So you mentioned the kind of two oceans. Those wines have a place because they drive the entry-level consumer towards South Africa and eventually hopefully they'll trade up. But value for a collector in South Africa, you know, we're kind of in a global recession. Some people won't admit to it, but call it that. You get amazing value from South Africa right now, especially if you're buying their top wines. Chardonnay, Cabernet, I think the base value coming from South Africa is method Capucines, which is the champagne method that is made. There's traditional varietals, traditional style, and it compares alongside some of the, some champagnes. So value doesn't have to be an ugly word. It doesn't mean you're trading down. But South Africa, the rand is weak right now. And in terms of the global shipping crisis, South African shipping is more affordable than most countries, certainly from Europe and certainly from Australia right now. So you're getting a lot of savings along the way. Also in the US, there's rebates for South African wine on taxes. So that's another saving that you're going to get. So when you see a South African wine that's $50, please don't think there's anything wrong with it if you've been buying $500 wine. It really is collectible. Go for the base names. Go for wines that have been recommended, either any of the critics you like, whether it's Spectator, whether it's Suckling, whether it's Parker, whether it's the South African John Platter Guide, which I personally recommend. I use it as my personal – well, it's my directory to phone people, and it really gives you a good guideline of what to expect. So a very long answer about why you should collect South African.

If I can build on that point, it's also between – it's always been sort of sold as somewhere between the old world and the new world, which I do agree with. So the old world is all romantic and the new world is all very like sexy and amazing and innovative. And South Africa has both and it has something in the middle for those two. And as we come to later in the discussion, we can unpack some of that. 

Yule Georgieva: Wonderful. Very detailed answer and a great answer. I'm excited to go crack a bottle, even though it's only two o'clock now, so I'll have to wait a little while. But you know, since we're talking about this evolution of South African wine and how it has really caught up in many respects, especially at the top end, to some of the global masterpieces, right? You can, as you said, you can put some South African wines in a lineup with some of the top wines in the old world or in the new world, and they will hold their own. I know we're going to get to producers when we dive deeply into the regions, but who could be just off the top of your head some of the producers or wines in the last 30 years who have really driven South African wine forward and put it on the map? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Well, that is a very, polarized is not the word, but two-pronged approach. It's a two-pronged answer because South Africa in the last 30 years has been driven by what I call the iron clans, the blue chips and the innovators. So they're small and they're sexy and everybody talks about them, but you can't get their wine. And then the blue chips are getting all the awards globally available in small amounts, but there they are. You can buy them on the shelf, but a highest quality for 50 years sometimes. So Nierlust is one of those, I would say Warwick is one of those, which is my family property that we used to own, is one of those like blue chip, you know what you're getting, it's always fantastic. So Lima would be one of those. Hamilton Russell, unbelievable quality. And I mean, a Hamilton Russell Chardonnay is probably $50 to $60. I'm not, I know what it is in Canada, I don't know what it is in the States, but it's probably around there. It's an absolute bargain. If you think what can you get from Burgundy, from Sonoma coast, from those cooler climates, and you've got a winery that has a legacy of producing outstanding quality year on year for 40 years, perhaps. I think they just had their 40th vintage. And then there's the small innovators. And some of them aren't that small anymore. And they were always called the young guns. And we laughed at them, going, you ain't so young anymore. But they're still called the young guns. 

Yule Georgieva: They're friends of yours, so you're allowed to say that. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Our friends are very grateful and they would not mind this. It's the likes of Ibn Sa'di, it's the likes of Adi Badenhorst, it's the likes of Chris Ulheims, that are just producing, Donovan Ruhl, are just producing really, really interesting wines. They're focusing on single vineyard, they're focusing on old vine, they're focusing on producing, planting grapes that are suited to where the land is and its aspect, as opposed to just throwing in some Cabernet because they think it will sell. So they were planting, I mean, Palomino, I don't know if it's a variety many people are aware of, it was produced in South Africa for many years as a brandy varietal. So, it was highly cropped and made into very cheap wine. And now, Palomino has come onto the South African scene in terms of quality because it's old vine and they're doing interesting things. Nordea, Ian Nordea does an interesting Palomino, they'd go, no, that's just cheap wine for brandy. But suddenly we've got these old, gnarled vines. Some of them have been resurrected out of the rocks and the stone and the weeds to say, but there's vineyards here that have unbelievable quality history and that haven't been tended, that have had no fertilizer, all the things, no intervention whatsoever and they've been resurrected. In fact, one of the people that's really spearheaded that is a very interesting woman called Rosa Kruger. She's a bit of a household name in the industry of finding these little parcels in the middle of nowhere and just finding great winemakers who will turn them into gins. If you think it's somebody like Ibn Sa'di, he very humbly says, I didn't do anything. I just flipped the grapes and let them ferment and just crushed them. That's all I did because the fruit was so much character. There wasn't much there. 

Yule Georgieva: Yeah, I was going to ask you about the old vine project that Rosa does in South Africa. She's done with even, I think, the old line series, right? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: So he has these tiny parcels of wines from very specific blocks that are really interesting. And I think they're available in the US. I think they do import it. They're available in Nigeria, so from time to time we get them here in Canada. For instance, Ibn Sabi does a wine called Pulsader, which in English is puff adder, and it's a snake, like an adder snake, that when it sees you, you don't want that. It cuts up and it's kind of angry. It's a lazy snake, which makes it very dangerous because it won't move out of your way. So people usually get bitten by one because you stand on it. And it's quite well camouflaged. So he makes a sinso. Now sinso, that's the fall fighter wine. Now sinso was another wine, bulk reduction red wine. Sinsa was a grape that's very thin-skinned, very big grape that you would see like if you went to Whole Foods to buy grapes for eating, like table grapes. That's what Sinsa looks like. So, it really wouldn't seem that suited to wine. An interesting point is it's actually one of the parents of Pinotage, but there was a lot of Sinsa growing in South Africa because it could just churn out high volumes of cheap wine. And so, Ebel and Rosa found an old place, Senso, the vines concentrated the grapes far more because they were old and produces an outstanding example of Senso. And Senso in South Africa is becoming cool and more prevalent. It's quite a different style to the south of France, but really good. Yes, I've had some that are excellent. 

Yule Georgieva: So, before we get into the regional deep dive, I know I'm holding everybody at bay, but maybe we could just set the stage by talking about the main varietals in South Africa, especially because you mentioned pinotage. Maybe we should just explain what the main white, red, and then, of course, the flagship pinotage grape are. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Well, what is grown as opposed to what is quantity on two different questions. There's a lot of sauvignon blanc because it sells. There's one or two sauvignon blancs that are outstanding quality, but that's not really where I believe South Africa hangs its hat. Chardonnay is incredible. We've got so many cool climates, and even climates that people think are warmer. or warmer, create some elevation and they catch the sea breezes because they're 100 kilometers or less from the ocean. They catch the sea breezes with the elevation and you get that diurnal variation and you get a cooler star climate. And there's amazing producers in Elgin, in Elim, in the Himalayan Arda doing really, really world-class chardonnay. I had one this week, the weekend last, called Restless River. That is really interesting. You can't, I haven't seen it anywhere, probably maybe in the States. Very small production, Himmel and Arda, non-interventionist, very, I won't say it's natural wine because I don't love that too. But it's, I don't know if it's even organic, but it's low intervention and really, really serious style chardonnay that I love. I also love cristallum. They produce beautiful wines. Ataraxia, those are all Piemol and Arda. The Paul Kluver Seven Flags is from Elgin. That's fairly widely available and just phenomenal. Concentrated, not too op, really, really interesting styles. That's chardonnay in terms of whites. The other whites that I like are Bordeaux Blends and Rhone Blends. And obviously they all come from different areas because of the temperatures that those grids like, but the Rhone Blends with Marsan, Rousson, Vianier, Grenache, Blanc, they're really doing some interesting wines that would be more sweetened and the white Bordeaux blends. Toccara produced one that I really enjoy. The kind of heavy on the Seignon sometimes, which I like, because I'm finding, especially Bordeaux, some properties are going heavy on the Sauvignon Blanc, because it sells quicker and people like it, and maybe they don't understand the Seignon as much, but really interesting. So that's in terms of whites. In terms of red, we can all say Cabernet is king. And South Africa is Cabernet country. Sten-Lamboche, in particular, is Cabernet country. But then there's Shiraz and the Swabland, and some of the rodent varieties that are doing beautifully. And then the one that I love is Pinot, from the Couleur climates. Hamilton Russell, Storm, they're really just some, and you talk about collectible wines, those wines, I like, whenever I can get them into a Marseillaise, I do. And my husband started saying, I don't think they like Pinot Noir, especially not from South Africa, until I put one in his hand and he was like, don't like Cabernet as much as I like Pinot Noir. I mean, it was always kind of cool to like Cabernet, it made you kind of tough. But now, like, drinking peanut shows that you really, you know your stuff. 

Yule Georgieva: Yeah. You know the saying, all roads lead to Burgundy, right? So there it goes. You know, I'm surprised you didn't mention either Chenin Blanc or peanut dash. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Sorry, I know. I say thank you so much, Chenin. I love Chenin. I find Chenin sometimes a little bit hard to recommend to a consumer or collector, unless you absolutely know the wine. Because the Chenin spectrum can go from tasting like Sauvignon being very light and fruity, to being very oaky, heavy, like an old school Chardonnay. And it's not always the same consumer that likes one or the other. So unless you know your producer, like go to Ken Forrester, and you know you're gonna get a more oaky, richer style, and not the easy drinking, like drink on your boat out of plastic glass style. 

Yule Georgieva: I like those wines, they're very good, the lighter styles, but it's not a collector wine. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I always liked a Morgan's On, they did a Shannon Reserve that was just absolutely fabulous. So Shannon, absolutely, it's doing fabulously, but it is something that needs some explanation. Pinotage is the same. The best Pinotages, when I say the best, the ones that win all the awards, do not taste like Pinotage. They're not trying to, they're very oaky, they're trying to be made in a Bordeaux style, which I love. I find that that Canon Cop and some of the top beer scoop ones, they have a Bordeaux character to them with some Pinotage trays. The real Pinotage that actually tastes like Pinotage are more the un-oaked or lightly oaked younger drinking styles. 

Yule Georgieva: And that's again, when people say, what should I, should I be putting Pinotage in my cellar? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I mean, yes, you should, but don't just go and buy it. Know what you're buying. Understand, once again, on the spectrum where those wines sit. Because you know, if you want Cabernet from South Africa, I can say you pretty much know what you're getting, and there's some real bankers to say, I've got to have those in my cellar.

Yule Georgieva: Fantastic.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: And Pinotage, those bankers are there. You just got to know who they are. 

Yule Georgieva: And there are some people who are really trying to rehabilitate, I'd say, the reputation of pinotage, right? I think most people would associate it with coffee, because the grinder and those styles have always had that sort of element, whereas I always find a bit of that Sesso character, that red fruit, more elegant style. For instance, Hamilton Russell, aren't they doing a pinotage right now? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: They are. Ashbourne, I think, is it? Ashbourne, yeah. Yeah, I mean, anything they produce is fabulous. So once again, that's a more elegant style and then there's the very oaky, big styles of blockbuster. So it really depends what you're looking for. I do hope that Pénétage finds its style because it can be hard, as I say, to produce that, go and buy it and you know the style that you like. 

Yule Georgieva: Absolutely. Well, with that, let's kick off our tour. So imagine that we're starting in Cape Town and our first stop on our wine tour is going to be just a little bit to the south to Constantia. So we'll start in Constantia. It obviously has a great history. So maybe you could just tell everybody a little bit about Constantia, what makes it special, the main varietals you'll find there, and then maybe some of the top producers you'd call out. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: So, Constantia's great because it's such an easy, sort of, even afternoon trip from the city of Cape Town, and it's so historic and so beautiful. Some of the oldest wine estates in South Africa are there, in fact, the oldest, which is Brit Constantia and Plaine Constantia. Beautiful old Dutch homesteads. It's architecturally just fabulous. You get views of the ocean from False Bay from many of the estates and you can feel those cooling breezes. Chardonnay, Pilonoir, Shiraz, Metacaptor, Cerveño Blanc, those are all fantastic from those areas, from those wineries because it's cooler. Stenberg are producing some really interesting wines. I like Tank Constantia. Fred Constantia is doing some fabulous wine. The place to eat that's really nice is Bow Constantia. It's got the best view in Constantia, I think. And their wines are nice, but it's quite a new estate and they, I haven't tasted them for a few years, but when I last did, they were excellent, very good value and certainly finding their path. 

Yule Georgieva: Tell us a little bit about the sweet wines of Constantia. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Oh, interesting. So people may have heard about Vande Constance. That was a wine that was one of Napoleon's, it was Napoleon's favorite wine and it was produced from the early 1800s. I was lucky enough to try the 1821 vintage. 

Yule Georgieva: Wow. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: This vintage where it was actually white because it's made from muscat before that it was made from red muscat, so the wine was red before and only in 1821 did it change to become white muscat. What's interesting is it's not a noble late harvest, so there's no betrytus. It's a natural switch, which means the grapes are raisined on the vine, they're not just hanged. So they're raisined slightly and then you press it and you get this delicious sweet juice. And it really has been a wonderful flagship for Constantia, for South Africa, because year on year it's a fantastic wine. And for collectors, you're looking for wines that will basically age forever. And as I said, the 1821 was delicious. And it's giftable and it's talkable and it's really an interesting wine to buy. And if a third consensual is producing a similar wine right now as well. So that's if you can't get hold of the Vanda Constance from Plain Consentia, that's certainly worth a look. 

Yule Georgieva: Yes, I love both of those wines. They're delicious. So you're here to fill your cellar with some of those. So if we continue on our tour from Constantia, let's continue down the South Coast maybe towards the Himalayas and Hermanus and the Southern Coast and all of the wonderful sub-regions down there, Agulhas, Selim as you mentioned. Tell us about that area. What sort of things will we find there? What's the style? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Of course, I would- You know, if you have all day, I can.

Yule Georgieva: This is your region.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I said, this is your place. My happy place. Even though Maya stayed with Stellenbosch, and we'll come to Stellenbosch and what varietals really do well there. The Hamilton audit, you know, Hamilton Russell was the lone force up there. And there was Anthony Hamilton Russell beating his drum, going, cool climate. And everybody's like, nevermind, ignore him. Fore-dode styles in Stellenbosch, that's all we want. And then Burschardt-Findlesen arrived and they went next door to him going, okay, Anthony's onto something. And so it really has just blossomed that whole region from tiny little producers to now Burschardt-Findlesen, Hamilton Russell and Newton Johnson, very well established. We talk about the blue chips, those are there. I've never had a bad one from any of them, of those producers. And then there's the smaller ones out there. There has been a little bit of an argument about upper Himalayan order versus lower Himalayan order, which to the connector, I would say, just look at Himalayan order. It's a small enough region, and everybody's always trying to designate for the areas that my area is more special You know like the whole onion theory about the outer layers and as you go in Everybody wants their tiny little piece of earth to be completely special and I it is special But the consumer doesn't always understand that and the connector So the Hamelin order which means heaven and earth Really Chardonnay Pinot Noir, it's there was some really nice El Borino coming out of there. All the wines are just great. Southern tip, so it's the southern tip of Africa, it's getting cooling sea breezes from both sides. And what I always love about wines that are grown close to the ocean is that maritime seashell flavor. And let's not negate salt, because if something is grown next to the ocean, there's going to be salt on the grapes and that is going to ameliorate flavor, which people never really talk about, but I believe it's true and I've spoken to wine makers. So I'm not saying it's science, for me it's a feeling, but a lot of wine makers agree with the feeling that if you grow it close to the ocean it's going to maybe have a bit of a salt effect. So even the white blends, the white cordial blends are just outstanding. Cool Climate Shiraz, Pinot Noir, and it's got that oyster shell character that is unmistakable and really, really amazing. 

Yule Georgieva: Can I just ask a very quick thing on that? Do you find, is it the case in South Africa that if Shiraz is made in a cooler style or northern Rome style, they call it Syrah, whereas if it's in that fruitier, black fruit Barossa style, they call it Shiraz. Is that something people can notice on a label? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: No, I'd say it's completely random according to what the winemaker wants or the marketing person wants. I don't think we can really rely on that as to which style it is. But, you know, we talked about styles of Pinotage and styles of Shannon. I don't feel such a polarization with Shiraz. From the swig on to Elim, I'm still getting Shiraz. It still tastes like Shiraz. You can definitely taste cooler, warmer climates, but I'm finding there's a homogenous character there that I really like. And then Elgin. Elgin was an apple-producing area, still is, and depending on which one is fetching better prices, that's what's grown predominantly. But really, you know, I'd say Paul Kluver is the blue chum. Been there a long time, Oak Valley, you know, even if they haven't farmed grapes that long, they know their soils, they know their climates, their farmers, their agriculture, they get it. But the Paul Kluver wines really are outstanding. It's beautiful family business. They're doing an amazing job with South African for Elgin. And then you've got your smaller, like, sort of small mavericks like Richard Kershaw. He's doing Shiraz with our clonal selection, so he bottles the different clones separately, which I love. He's a British MW and he's just highly intelligent and an amazing taster. And he just sees things so clearly. He's like, why would you blend these two together when they're completely different? So he bottles them separately. So he's doing some really, really interesting things. 

Yule Georgieva: That's a lot of great producers for us to try after the call. But then if we continue on our drive, I think next we spoke a little bit about Stellenbosch. So let's go to the heart of wine country, to the Cape Winelands. Tell us about Stellenbosch, the surrounding areas, what makes that area so special? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: So Stellenbosch is really like, as you say, the heart of the South African wine industry and there's a huge like snooty element to it. Like if you have a farm in Stellenbosch, you tell people, as opposed to... You had a firm, I tell them, gosh. It was really seen as a bad pollute shop, but the soils are amazing. Its granite soils, a well-drained red loam, a wide range of aspects, proximity to the ocean. So it is now, it's not a warm climate, but not full climate. But with the innovation, it's getting sea breezes, and still a much of a Cabernet country. There's some great Shiraz, brownie, great Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, but in my opinion, if you can, it's the thing to get there. And beautiful Bordeaux-styled French oak Barique, some really, really excellent wines. I love, always liked the taqara, I like del air broth, I like keats first verse, kind of smaller but very delicious, mostly cabernet from by a guy called Chris Keats. And Warwick was my family business, they do a bordeaux blend that I think is outstanding, always getting grand awards. So, Sennheim-Bosch, you generally can't go wrong. There's a lot available. It's a prolific region and really doing some great stuff and awesome to visit. The Sennheim-Dor in that area, there's amazing restaurants and it's really fun. Right next door to that is a place called Pal. The name comes from Pal because there's a small mountain there and the top of the mountain has got granite and when it rains on the granite it looks like a black pearl. And so, from traditional Dutch, it became paardel is the word and it became paal. And paal is considered warmer climate, so some of the caverns are doing well, Shiraz, run variables, and then we move around the corner to Frantzschuk. Frantzschuk is just a tourist paradise. It's absolutely just beautiful restaurants, places to stay, gorgeous places to visit. There's beautiful wineries. Lamotte is really worth going to. Buchenwald's got amazing wines. And Odecabrier, which you mentioned. Exactly. Eau de Cabriere is doing very, very good methane cactus steak and their restaurant is like in the wine cellar in a cave. It's like really cool. But yeah, there's lots of really interesting wines in Bradshawk and a tourist maker and just you know, and you can, all the restaurants serve beautiful wines and you know, you can taste your way by the door. 

Yule Georgieva: Yeah, I think there's quite a few Michelin starred restaurants in Franchois-Cuispeil, no?

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I don't think Michelin has gone to South Africa. Oh, they've actually just come to Canada, which is very exciting. I did hear this, exactly. But San Pellegrino, definitely on the list, of list in San Pellegrino. But correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if Michelin's gone to South Africa, and I wish they would if they haven't. 

Yule Georgieva: Well, if you're listening, Michelin Guide, please go to South Africa. Franschhoek is well worth a visit. It is very lovely there. And you mentioned some, I think one of the things about Stellenbosch and Franschhoek and Pearl, there's so much variety there, to your point, and there are so many established producers. It is the highest concentration and the highest number of producers that you would, would you say, of any of the regions? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I don't have the actual stats, but I would say that's correct. It's a fairly big region broken up into lots of sub-regions. Once again, the Heldenburg side, which is closer to the ocean, things there completely different to the Salzburg side, which of course they are, but for people collecting, they would look at Stellenbosch as a whole as to breaking it up into the smaller areas.

Yule Georgieva: Interesting. Well, then let's end up by going a little bit north into the Swartland, since this has really burst onto the scene in recent years with some very exciting characters. And I personally have had my best wine experience ever from a 2005 Columella, which I'm sure is going to be one of the wines you talk about. But tell us about the Swartland.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: So the Swartland's really interesting because it was traditionally when I was growing up it was more wheat, canola, rolling that was grown in the rolling hills, warmer area, not too much rainfall, and no one ever, we'd never really seen, we'd seen a few grapes grown there but not really. And then it's, you know, Stalingrad's land started getting so expensive. So some of these younger producers wanted to farm and they went out there. And you could get land that was more portable, but these guys had done their homework because they're going, okay, this is part of all of the makings of a fantastic wine because of the climate, the soil, the aspects, proximity to the ocean because it actually is not far. And so they started producing more rhoden-style varietals. I remember one of the groundbreaking properties out there was Spice Root, which was part of Fairview. And we were like, what? Why did they go to Warrangal Bay? Because we were Stanley Botch people. We thought we were the absolute epicenter of the world, very naively. So they started with Spice Root, and then Eep and Sadi started, and Barden It just grew with all these, basically it's just full of very cool, very innovative people that believe in the land and the soil and the climate and that it's all going to come together. So they are deeply agricultural in their hearts as opposed to some people that are wine farmers that just, as I say, just plant Sauvignon Blanc because they think it's going to sell. They're in touch with their land. When you go walking in the fields with Ibn Saadi, you've got your hands on the soil and you're working him and he's showing you how healthy his earthworms are that belong there. It's all basically organic and non-intervention and it's a beautiful thing to see. I just wish those guys all the success, the future success, because they've really built a name for themselves and for South Africa in what they're doing, and really sticking to their guns and saying, we're doing great wines, and we're gonna maybe experiment a bit, maybe push the boundaries, and do things that are really different. The Stainless Mosher is not doing, we're not trying to copy them, we're trying to do our own thing. And I have a deep respect for them for that. 

Yule Georgieva: I think one thing that's interesting with those producers is they are, as you said, so deeply agricultural. They're very connected to their land, but some of their wines, especially Columella and Palladius from Ibn Sa'di and then some of the Molineux wines, the Schist and the Granite, those are fetching quite high prices. So they're actually kind of at the vanguard there, pushing the bounds of what South African wine can fetch.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Exactly, and it's good for them because they've got everything to back it up with charging those prices. They've got the quality, they've got the scores when they need them, everybody's talking about them, they're super interesting, the wines are always sold out, people are collecting them. In fact, we talked about sweet wines earlier, the Milanese have a sweet wine called the Onoraceae that's always getting underneath all sports. It's a straw wine and it's hunt games and it always gets five stars at water and it's worth looking out for that wine if you can find it. And then there's, like I talk about, more smaller producers, but they probably don't think they're small. But as I say, when I was growing up, there was Swat Clan Co-op and that really was it, which produced kind of some nice drinking churros, you know, if you're having a barbecue. But there wasn't, and so this has happened fairly recently and I just think it's amazing that people all over the world are talking about those wines now.

Yule Georgieva: Yeah, for sure. Well, let's, we spoke a little bit about bubbly earlier, so why don't we, before we just get your final thoughts, why don't we talk a little bit about NCC, since there are some great producers that you've actually turned me on to. And as you say, some of them are really doing champagne style wines where they let it sit on the leaves for a long time and really cranking up the level of quality. So tell us about bubbly in general.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: It was in 1974 that Simon Sinch made the first MCC, Metacapital C, and it was made with Shannon, I believe. And Simon Sinch is in Stellenbosch and he went to Champlain and he came back and he said, but I can do this. And they did the – and it was pretty good, apparently. I wasn't born yet, but it was pretty good. And so since then it's just been growing because it offers serious, serious value. It's less than half the price of an entry-level champagne. And if you talk entry-level champagne, this is triple the quality. So it's something really interesting. We definitely need to talk about Bubbles Ferreira. That's his nickname. He's from Brambeck and they really produce all different tiers of of make a cactus heat and they do some outstanding quality. The wines are freely available, you know, the first level and then the premier cuvées and things, I'm not quite sure. I think they are available but doing some unbelievable stuff. And then it's really worth going to the Champagne Festival in Franchoch in December if anybody's ever around there because you get to taste all the producers and it's like in the hot sunshine, you're at the monument to the French Huguenots at the bottom of the town in Franchoch and there's like first a band playing and then there's a DJ and you're dancing in the sunshine with your glass of champagne and you're going, life is good. It really is an awesome way to… 

Yule Georgieva: It sounds like a Sunday at my house. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not. And it's called the Champagne Festival because they showcase champagne and method of tap cassis, so they're not majorizing anything. But it really is interesting to see what's being done. And then there's John Lobsher, he's out in Robertson. I'm trying to remember the name. It's called The Green Man. Charles Fox? No, it's not Charles Fox, but Charles Fox is really, really worth trying. That's in Eldon and doing some really fabulous wines. So, you know, here in Canada, we get them like it's $20, the start of the South African pricing. For $20, it's better than it's in Australia. It's a lot cheaper than the South African pricing. And for $20, you're getting, it's better than a certain amount of creme de begonia, and it's better than some integrated champagne. So it's worth thinking about. And also, it's not a new product in the country. Since 1974, it's got some history.

Yule Georgieva: So yeah, that's interesting.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Go to the Champagne Festival in France. 

Yule Georgieva: Right. Well, for anybody who's wanting to learn more about South African wine or get more information, what is it that you would recommend that they do? Or is there any particular writer you find really captures South African wine? Well, you mentioned the Platter Guide, which maybe we should just explain a little bit of what the Platter Guide is. But if there's any, I mean, I know that you used to have a blog, I don't know if you still do, but any place where people could get more information like this, where would you send them? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: So the Platter Guide is amazing because almost every single wine in South Africa has been tasted and scored and rated. It gives you the contact details, where they are on the map, if they have a restaurant, if they have accessibility, whatever you want to know, it's there. If they have a feeding room for children, all the information is there with their opening hours. And so it gives you a guide as to the whole industry. It also tells you who tasted and rated their wines, so that you can develop a following to say, well, if Yule tasted it, I really liked it, but if Jetty tasted it, not so great. You know, because we all have different palates, so it's nice to follow people. The other one is, I think Tim Atkin has very much nailed South Africa. He has done an amazing job. He does his reports every year. And I always look at it. He's a friend of mine. I love to have the odd argument about a wine going, are you sure that belongs there? And then he always can absolutely back up why he's put it in a certain category. I love the way that he's put certain wines into first growth to say, if they were first growth in South Africa, this is what they'd be, and second growth, and so on. So I think he's a great ambassador for South Africa and if you are not sure, I would follow his rankings. He does them in various regions around the world and he's not often wrong. I won't say he's never wrong because he's human, but he's not often wrong. He really does get it. 

Yule Georgieva: You hear that, Tim? Jenny's got your number. So Jenny, where do you see South African wine going? What are the trends that we should expect? Do you see more of these sort of garages coming up and doing new things? Do you think it's settling into certain styles? Where do you think it's heading? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Well, premiumization is definitely the goal and that is already happening. And premiumization will be achieved through site-specific wines, through old vine, through a considered approach to wine as we talked about, planting what is suited on the site as opposed to planting what the market wants. To own or selection, like Richard Kershaw does. Arise in traditional varieties. I won't go shed in traditional, but Senso, Pan Amino, things that are quirky and interesting and just producing something profound that people don't know. And I do hope that people follow Pénétage. You know, it hasn't had that long in the international scene. The wines are good and it's worth experimenting in the rainbow of Pénétage to see what you like. And then, I mean, South African and Cambodian can compete. It really can. So those are just some interesting trends. The whole point about South Africa for the top producers who are going for premiumisation is it needs to be good and you need to taste against the best of the world and be better. And people are always striving for that and I really do love that about South Africa. resilience and through everything that our country has been through. And really, it's wonderful to see the industry doing so well. 

Yule Georgieva: I think that's a wonderful note on which to end. So with those final thoughts on South Africa, is there anything else that you'd like to pass on to our listeners? Or if you could, I don't know if you still do have any information that you personally share or an Instagram account that people could connect with you on, but if you'd like to share that, you're welcome to as well. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Unfortunately, my blog died with COVID as my exposure to wine became limited here in Canada, and so it became a blog about what I drained last night, which is not that interesting to most people. But the last point I wanted to make before we go is age-ability. South African wines can age. Pick the right wines to make an age. And for me, it's not people always think tannin is what ages a wine, it's acidity. So pick the ones with a good acidity and often that means cooler climate and you're going to have really, you're going to be really, really well rewarded. I'll just show you here. This is a 1985 Cabernet from my wine estate that was, which still is in a box that I used to own, and you have a bottle of this and it's purely sublime. Sure, it's developed and it's got secondary flavors, but it's still got beautiful acidity, the tannin is still there, the wine has not fallen apart whatsoever. It's got beautiful limes, beef stock, and licorice notes to it. They're exquisite. Obviously, leather, pistichio, those things that you wouldn't expect. That's Cabernet-based, good acidity, and that's what's preserving it. So, you know, some people will say, oh, don't age your South African wines more than eight years. I think that's not correct. 

Yule Georgieva: For our listeners on the podcast who may not have seen that, can you just tell us what the wine was? 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Oh, it is a Warrant Cabinet 7, 1985, made by my mom. 

Yule Georgieva: Well, that's definitely worth getting.

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: I don't know if anyone could still procure that out there. I'll drink mine with you, you know. 

Yule Georgieva: Excellent. Okay, well, Jenny, thank you so much. This was just a trove of information, and I think for anyone listening, whether they're old world or new world preferred drinkers or if they're interested in just exploring what all of South Africa has to offer, there seems to be really something for everybody under the sun in this country we love so much. So thank you for bringing it to life and we're very excited to hopefully continue this conversation sometime. 

Jenny Ratcliffe-Wright: Wonderful.