Yule Georgieva: Welcome to Chats from the Wine Cellar, the official inventory podcast where we talk to leading figures in the world of wine. I am thrilled this week to welcome the one, the only Ian Daggett to the podcast. So you'll be known to many of our listeners and viewers as the authority on Italian wine. He's a multi award-winning author who's been speaking and writing about wine for 30 years, although he still has the energy of a 20 year old. So there's really something to be said about that wine diet, hey Ian? Absolutely, and thank you for the leading. My mother thanks you too, I'm sure. So his books, The Native Wine Grapes of Italy, Italy's Native Wine Grape Terroirs, and Italy's Grapes and Wines, the Definitive Compendium, Region by Region, are considered the Bibles of Italian wine, and I cannot recommend these books enough. They have received numerous prestigious awards like the Louis Roederer International Wine Awards Book of the Year. And he also has the latest book. You want to hold it up for us?

Ian D'Agata: Oh yeah, sure. Absolutely. Very proud.

Yule Georgieva: That's Barolo terroir. So this is also attracting some accolades. And is this out already, Ian?

Ian D'Agata: It is, it is. It's available on Amazon and yeah, it's done pretty well. It's already won some awards. It's up for another award. And the most important thing is just trying to put down all my years of visiting the vineyards and talking to people who are now no longer making the wines because it's their children who are making the wines. And they're just memories of people who somewhat passed away. And I just wanted to put it down so it's there. Then people might like it, might not like it, but at least it's there for posterity.

Yule Georgieva: That's great. Well, I'll be excited to get a copy of that. But that's not all you're doing. So Ian's also the former, well, he was the former staff editor at Stephen Tanzer's International Wine Cellar, contributing editor at Decanter and the senior editor at Venice. And now you're the editor in chief at the Terroir Scents Wine Review and the chief scientific officer, which I love that title, it's very official, of Taste Spirit, which is China's leading wine education and media platform. And you're the president of the Terwar Sen's Wine Academy and Wine Education Program. So you're sharing your knowledge with people everywhere through that program.

Ian D'Agata: It's a lot of fun.

Yule Georgieva: Oh, wonderful. Well, you can find Ian on Instagram, ian underscore dagada and at terwar sen. So we'll link those in the bottom when we get to it. But right now let's kick off and talk about Barolo, a very fun topic with a lot of material, but we're going to try to get through as much as we can and give our collectors a high level of view. So first, Ian, we've had a good background on you, but let's start with a quick overview of Barolo. So what makes this region so special and why should collectors have Barolo in their cellars?

Ian D'Agata: The best way to think of Barolo is in terms of burgundy. It is an area which is essentially made up of small family run estates. There aren't too many huge, huge chateau like structures there. It's an area that is highly fragmented in ownership, so most producers have five, six, seven, ten hectares of vineyards and there's one grape only that is used to make Barolo and Barbaresco, which is a sort of sister wine in a different area and that's in the Biolo just like in Burgundy it's mostly Pinot Noir so it's really an area that really echoes Burgundy so if you like Burgundy there really are a lot of parallels and it's a wine that ages forever in this respect it's a lot more like Bordeaux Barolos are some of the longest-lived wines in the world if you were lucky enough to find a good or well-stored 1947, it's still a thing of beauty today. So these are really wines that age forever and they gain in value.

Yule Georgieva: Nowadays, they're starting to become more and more sought after with some wines becoming very expensive. So lots of reasons to like Barolo.

Ian D'Agata: I would add also that the area is remarkably beautiful the trattorie that are non-Michelin-starred offer really great food. And of course, the wine is beautiful.

Yule Georgieva: Well, you've been to Barolo many, many times. So can you give us a sense of the feel when you're there? Like you said, the trattorie and the restaurants are wonderful. And but what are the people like? What's the feel? Because you mentioned it is more similar to Burgundy in terms of the wine, but is that also true in terms of just the feel that it's less of that glitz of Bordeaux and more of the vineyards of Burgundy?

Ian D'Agata: Well, it's a hilly area, so in that respect it's already more like Burgundy. Unlike Burgundy are midway up the hill with the Prémier Cruz above and just below and the Léodice and the Villages farther lower down. In Barolo, there is a very changing topography. It's very undulating and so you have vineyards looking every which way but loose and so it's a much more complex reality. So it's a beautiful sea of vineyards. It's really remarkable when you step out there, you see nothing but vineyards. For some people, it's almost too manicured. It's almost too the result of human labor. But it's remarkably beautiful. There's 11 communes that can make Barolo. The Barolo appellation, what we call denominations in Italy or denominazione has 11 communes so just like you have Gervais-Chambertin and Chambord-Musigny and Poumard or in Bordeaux you have Margaux, Pouyac, Saint-Esteph, in Barolo you have 11 communes that are allowed to make Barolo and each one of these Barolo communes actually has a castle and so there are some very beautiful castles in the area and so it's this combination of remarkably pretty hillside vineyards, swerving winding roads, castles. The towns to be truthful are not particularly pretty. The prettiest is the town of La Modra which is also the one located highest up at about 500 meters above sea level but the towns are remarkably full, not just of wine shops, but of really remarkably good restaurants. The area of the Lange, which is this part of Piedmont where Barolo and Barbaresco are made, Barolo and Barbaresco are two denominations that are roughly 15 minutes apart by car, and they are separated by the town of Alba. Alba is the equivalent of bone in Burgundy. So in Burgundy you have bone and then you have the Côte de Nuit to the north and the Côte de Beaune to the south. It's the same thing in the Lange. You have Alba as the epicenter. To the northeast you have Barbaresco and to the southwest you have Barolo. And this area of the Lange, at at last count, I may be getting some numbers wrong, counted one three Michelin star restaurant, two Michelin star restaurants, and something like 31 Michelin star restaurants. And that's without considering how great the trattoria and the osteria are. So if you enjoy good food and wine, it's just an amazing, amazing experience.

Yule Georgieva: I know that you do enjoy good food and good wine, so we'll take that word of endorsement to heart.

Ian D'Agata: I think it makes the wine experience so much more enjoyable. I think one of the reasons why people love to go, for example, to Alsace or Burgundy or the Rhone is because you don't have just great wines and beautiful scenery and fantastic people, but you also have some really remarkable regional cuisines. I absolutely love Alsatian food. I never get tired of it. But, truth be told, the Rhone has amazing food too. It's heartier fare that goes well with the kind of wines they make there. But the city of Lyon is generally recognized in France to be, outside of Paris, the best eating city in France. And so, it makes a trip there so much more enjoyable. And it's the same thing in Barilo. Just about every one of the 11 communes has great restaurants and it's just you know after a long day tasting wine it's just nice to kick back and and be in a nice trattoria eating well.

Yule Georgieva: What would be some of the regional specialties that you would pair with

Ian D'Agata: Barilo? Well you know Barilo historically has always been paired with the obvious The obvious things are game or just simply long cook stews. The very famous dish in Piemonte is brazato al barolo. Brazato literally means braised meat. So that's a long cooked shank, for example, that can cook for five hours. The meat is literally falling off in red wine. They call it brazato al barolo, but in fact most restaurants will use a slightly less expensive wine like dolcetto to make the wine, but it's great and really melting your mouth. The Piedmont is famous for having one of the best breeds of cows in Italy. Italy has four really remarkably good meat cows and one of them is the Razzia Piedmontese, the Piedmontese breed. It's a lean but very flavorful meat that gives also very great raw meat. So one of the best things in Piedmont to eat is carne cruda, which is literally a tartare, but it's not dressed up in any sort of way. It's literally just maybe a little olive oil and lemon juice if you want it. The key thing in Piedmont is that there are a lot of truffles. Italy has five major types of truffles. In reality, it has many more. And the two most common kinds are white and black truffles. In fact, there are at least two major white truffles and two major black truffles. In Piedmont, it is one of the two or three places in Italy that has the biggest percentage of the best white truffle of all, which is called the tartufo bianco d'Alba. In fact, there are more of those truffles growing in Abruzzo and Marque than there are in Piedmont. But certainly there's a lot of them in Piedmont. And this truffle paired to the raw veal, to the cheese fondue, and to eggs is something that we will easily drink Barolo with and it works really, really well. It's a truffle, so pungent and strong, Barolo will work very, very well. Barolo has a reputation for being a very tannic wine, but in fact, it's not half as tannic as people think it is and a good half of the Barolo denomination actually produces Barolos that are not as tannic and tough when they're young. So provided you know which ones to choose, these Barolos go very well even at a young age with things like veal and eggs.

Yule Georgieva: Well, that leads in well to my next question, which is about how Barolo came into the scene, because this gets us into that split between the traditionalists and the modernists, which I think is where you were going with that comment about some wines being a bit more approachable. So can you give us a bit of the last 30, 40 years of how Barolo really came into the wine scene and what that history has been and what that distinction there is with the traditionalist and modernist.

Ian D'Agata: That's a really good question, and I think it's a very important point to talk about because things are changing now in Barolo, and so there is a real shift now in how we approach Barolo, whereas up to recent times, we would have talked about mostly how Barolo was being made because as you were alluding to there was a real dichotomy in the way Barolo was made in two camps, the traditionalists and the modernists. Over the last 20 years that has slowly petered out and nowadays Barolo producers essentially all make wine the same way. There are some still staunch traditionalists, there are still some staunch modernists, but in fact both camps have taken the best that each had to offer, and now most Barolos are being made the same way. So the exciting thing in Barolo, and I'll explain what we mean by traditionalist and modernist, but just to finish this point, the exciting thing in Barolo today, one of the exciting things, is that there is a shift in the way we look at the wine and what we look for in the wines, whereas in the 1980s and 1990s, even the early 2000s, we were looking at is this a traditional or a modernist Barolo. Today it's much more like Burgundy and we actually look at the terroirs where the Barolos come from. So today when we choose a Barolo, we think of which commune it is made in or which part of the denomination. To make a long story short, traditionalists and modernists, Barolo had always been made by very long maceration times, in other words, long skin contact, fairly high fermentation temperatures, even up to 35, very long oak aging in big barrels of Slavonian oak, even chestnut for a while. And what happened was these Barolos were usually, the grapes also didn't ripen as well as they do today because climate change hadn't arrived yet. And Barolo is made with Nabiola, which is a late ripening variety. So it really, back in the 70s or 60s, it really only ripened fully well three years out of ten. Maybe a couple of years it was okay. But there were really many, many vintages that were horrible. Many people aren't aware that in 1972, there was no Barolo made. It was all declassified by law. You will never find a bottle of 1972 Barolo because it doesn't exist. In the 60s, there were really maybe three excellent vintages. In the 70s, maybe three plus two very good ones. So really, we're talking only about less than half or half of those decades. So the Barolos at once were very tough and they required a lot of patience for them to come around. It's also because Nabiolo is a high acid, high tannin grape. That changed with the arrival of the modernists in the 1980s, whereby they shortened the maceration skin contact times, they use lower temperatures to get more fruit out. They introduced the small French barrel the Barrique, 225 liters usually, a lot of new oak, much lower yields, much lower yields, also cleaner oak, paid more attention to the hygiene in the cellar. So that combination led to much fruitier, riper, richer Barolos that were more showy and glossy early on in life. Neither system was perfect because the really modernist Barolos didn't age as well. We know that now. And the really traditional Barolos, some of them never came around. They just remained tight as nails and tough and tannic and bitter. So now people, like I said, adopt the best of both worlds and so the wines now are generally made the same way. So what it's important now is to know the various terroirs of Barolo and people all over the world who know a little bit about wine and collect wine are very much aware that a Bordeaux made in Margaux is going to be different from one from Pauillac and Saint-Esteph. Margaux is the bigger, burlier, masculine, if you will. Same thing in Burgundy. Pommard and Courton give you one type of Burgundy. Chambord-Musigny gives you another. Moray-Saint-Denis and Givray, somewhere in the middle. And people know that about Burgundy, know that about Bordeaux, and will buy the wines based on what their preferences are. That level of knowledge is really not very common yet for Barolo and Barbaresco, but that's what I'm pushing to have people develop, increase their knowledge about this and to know that some Barolo communes will give you Margaux or Chambault-like wines and some Barolo communes give you Pauillac or Corton Pomard kind of wines. And if you know that, it becomes much easier to pick a good Barolo.

Yule Georgieva: Well, we're going to do a tour of those 11 communes and get you to explain those, those differences, because I agree with you, that would be so helpful to our listeners. But before we do that, can you just give us a quick overview of the different classifications or types of red wine that you can get, because there's Barolo, there's also Reserva, and then there's Lange Nebbiola. So people will see those labels. Can you just explain those differences quickly?

Ian D'Agata: Yeah, very simply. So Nibiolo is a great variety and so you can make a Lange Nibiolo or a Nibiolo d'Alba wine. Nibiolo d'Alba comes from a smaller denomination, Lange Nibiolo from a bigger area. But basically it's young vines usually or vines planted in less great sites that are used to make an early drinking wine that doesn't have to be aged in oak, easy going, fresh, fruity, ready to go. The next level will be the Barolo, which is a wine that is aged at least two years in oak usually, another in bottle, and that is made with Nebbiolo, grown within the Barolo denominations, anywhere in the territories of the 11 communes, you can pick the grapes, you can blend them all together, you make a Barolo. Barolo Reserva just usually means more concentrated grapes, grapes that grow in better sites, just better wine that is aged for longer in oak. And you have then Barolo Rue wines, what in Italy they call, what in Piedmont they call MGAs. MGA stands for Mensione Geografica Giuntiva, which literally translates to additional geographic mention. A geographic mention is the vineyard area, the vineyard district. And so you can have a Barolo with the crew name, and there are 171 crews, which sounds a lot, but there's a lot more in Burgundy. So in reality, it's not so many. And so you can have a Barolo crew wine and then if you have a single vineyard within the crew You can also attach the single vineyard name in that case the grapes have to come not just from the crew or the MGA Vineyard district, but they have to come from the specific vineyard district So that would be a Barolo with the name of a crew which could be Brunate or Canubi That's like saying Les Amoureux or a chisel and then a single vineyard which can be you know Saint Mary's Vineyard or my dad's vineyard or whatever the single vineyard name is.

Yule Georgieva: I'm sure there's many of those, Mary's. Yeah for sure. Okay well now we get to the fun part which is where we tap into all of your great knowledge of the terroirs and the different communes. I'm going to sit back, I don't have a glass of wine, I have a glass of water, but I'm just going to let you take the reins. I do. And sear us through those 11 communes in whatever order, but just give us the stylistic differences, what separates the terroir of each, what things we can expect from those different regions. Sure.

Ian D'Agata: It's actually pretty easy. It's actually remarkably complex, but there's no need to make it so complex because there is a beauty to Barolo and Barbaresco in that it's actually remarkably easy to find out and to figure out if you're going to be drinking a wine that is more Margaux or more Pauillac, more Chambal or more Givray. So the key thing to remember about Barolo is that the denomination, the territory of the Barolo denomination is roughly a square. And if you cut that square diagonally from the northeast to the southwest, so this sort of slash, all the Barolos made on the left side of that line, dividing diagonal line, so to the west, those are going to be earlier maturing Margaux-like, Chambal-like Barolos. All the Barolos that are made from grapes grown to the right of that line, in other words to the east, those are going to be much more slower maturing wines that are even more age worthy than the other ones. All Barolos are going to be age worthy wines. All Barolos, no matter where they're made, are going to age 20, 30, 40, 50 years. Some just take a little longer to come around. Most Barolos now can be drunk already easily five years after the vintage. It's better to wait. If you can wait 10 years, you kind of get more bang for your buck. But in fact, you can drink them much sooner. So the communes are basically divided up based on this sort of diagonal line. So of the 11 communes, almost all of them are basically on the left side of that diagonal line. They are on the earlier maturing part of the Terroir of Barolo. And the easiest thing is to remember the ones that are on the slower to mature side of things because there's fewer of them. And the two main communes that are most famous in this light are Montforte and Serralunga. The full names are Montforte d'Alba and Serralunga d'Alba. So Montforte and Serralunga are like saying Givery-Chambertin and Maurice-Saint-Denis or Pomard and Corton, or if you like Bordeaux then more like Pauillac and Saint-Esteph, the biggest, the brawniest, the slowest to mature Barolos of all. There is another commune that gives you fairly tough, tough-as-nails Barolos. Practically all the other ones give you earlier maturing, easier, more approachable wines in their use. There is one that is considered to give the most balanced Barolos of all because it sort of falls right in the middle, and that is the commune of Castiglione Falletto. Castiglione Falletto is literally in the middle of the denomination, in between, right along that diagonal line I mentioned, and Castiglione Falletto gives wines that will be a lot like Saint Julien, if you will. So not quite as light as Margaux's, but not quite as powerful as Poyac's, and Castiglione Falletto will be right in the middle. All the other ones, all the other, the remaining communes give you wines that are ready to drink, different degrees of approachability and these are very famous communes like the commune of Barolo itself, the commune of La Morra which is the biggest of all the communes and has the most vineyard land, Verduno which now is becoming very important because of one vineyard area which is really a grand crew and probably I would add Novello. Novello has a bit of both but Novello's also are generally earlier ripening Barolo. So to make a long story short, think of five major communes, six major communes in Barolo of the 11 or let's just say if you really want to be maybe thorough, you know seven, and that is Monforte and Serralunga on the eastern side, which give you more age-worthy Barolos. Tastiglione-Falletto, which is right in the middle and gives you the best of both worlds. And then Verduno, from north to south, Verduno-La Morra, Barolo and Novello, these four give you earlier more approachable Barolos and they're all on the western side. So those four, Castiglione V, Monforte and Serralunda VI and VII. So of the 11 communes, if you remember these, this is where most of the Barolos are made anyways. You can't go wrong.

Yule Georgieva: Is there any commune that has sort of bubbled to the top as the most prestigious in the same way that maybe Von Romanet has or Poyark has?

Ian D'Agata: That's a that's a really good question. Well, historically you'd say that the Barolo commune was the most famous also because it has a crew called Canubi which is historically the most famous. Canubi is a vineyard that is so famous that already in 1752 was printed, the name of Canubi was printed on a label of wine, not even Barolo, not even Nebbiolo, just Kanubi. And it's an extended hill, which actually really should be thought of more in the terms of the Morashes. In other words, there's a Morashe proper, and then you have Batar Morashe, and Shiver Yeh Morashe, and K'fiyo Batar Morashe, and Bienvenue Batar Morashe. They're all great vineyards, they're all great wines, and it's the same thing with Canubi. There's a central portion to Canubi, it's a central part of the long extended hill, and then there's other parts, Canubi Bosques, Canubi San Lorenzo, Canubi Valletta, and Canubi Muscatel, which really have different soils and different altitudes, so it's really wrong to say that it's all one hill. It's convenient for people to say that because, face it, it's human nature. Even in Burgundy, if you gave all those people in the Montrachet area the ability to just choose what they want to call their wine, they'd all call it Montrachet. They wouldn't bother with Bienvenu Batard or Criobatard. It's the same thing in Barolo. Everybody wants to call it Canubi. They don't want to bother with Canubi Muscatel or Canubi Centrale or Canubi San Lorenzo, but it's wrong because the altitudes are different, the soils are different and the wines are going to be different too. So to answer your question, Barolo is probably the most famous by virtue of Canubi, but in fact today most people will tell you that the wines of Serralunga are really potentially the best Barolos of all just because Serralunga has the highest limestone content in its soil and every Frenchman worth his spittoon will tell you that you can't make great wines without limestone. So, Serralunga's blessed from that point of view. But it really depends, it really depends on what your style is. You know, if you like Margaux, then you just like Margaux. I love Saint-Julien, for example. So, I mean, I'm never gonna turn down a glass of Latour or Margaux, but if you give me a little bit less Paz, I'm very, very happy. So, it really depends what you like. So, Seralunga because of the limestone thing, Monforte because the wines are really fleshy and powerful, while Seralungas are powerful but more higher in acidity and more citrusy. La Morra, beautifully floral and round and approachable when young. So each commune has its partisans. I would say that it's the single crews within the communes that are now becoming important. So for example, even Barolo lovers who know Barolo a little will have heard of the crew in the Verduno township or commune called the Mondigliero. Mondigliero is generally considered to be a grand crew for Barolo, one of the 10, 12 best sites of all. But that is really probably the only crew that many people even know in the Verduno territory, but there are many others. But so when you talk about, do people like the Barolos of Verduno? Yeah, they might because they're extremely floral, they're extremely approachable, some of the most early maturing of all Barolos. But in fact, what people really want from Verduno is the Barolo of the Mondigliero crew. to put in a perspective in Chambord-Musigny, if you don't talk about the two Grand Cruises, Musigny and Beaumar, the vineyard everybody wants and everybody wants the wines of is Les Amoureuses and it's exactly the same thing in Verdun. In Verdun everybody wants Montvillier. So that's your question.

Yule Georgieva: Well are there any particular producers who have really arisen in these different communes as being the definitive producer for that style, right? We've mentioned a lot of Burgundy and Barolo references, but is there anything similar in that there are certain producers who really have pinpointed style?

Ian D'Agata: Sure, sure. You know, every commune has iconic producers, right? So in Monforte, there's two wineries called Conterno. Conterno is a very common family name in the Barolo denomination. You have Giacomo Conterno and you have Aldo Conterno that are now being run by the children of Giacomo and Aldo Conterno. This was one winery once that separated into the two. Aldo Conterno is located in Monforte like Giacomo Conterno, but the difference is that Aldo Conterno, its vineyards are in the Monforte commune, while Giacomo Conterno has become famous because of its wines made in the Serralunga commune. And so these two names are benchmarks for powerful Barolos that age very well. Aldo Conterno owns vineyards in really the best part of the Morforta territory, a crew called Busia, but they actually own the vineyards in a real sweet spot of the Busia crew. The Busia crew is huge. It's unfortunately too big. It's almost 300 hectares. It's much, much too big. You've got to consider that Mousigny is only 11 hectares, right? So, Boussia is too big. But the sweet spot in Boussia is called Boussia Soprana. And really the best vineyards there are owned by Aldo Conterno. So, historically, this estate has made some fantastic, fantastic Barolos. Giacomo Conterno, the estate now being run by Roberto Conterno, probably makes the most famous and most expensive Barolo of all, which is the Monfortino. Monfortino carries that name from Monforte because it used to be made with Monforte grapes. I mean, that's where the winery is. But in fact, Monfortino for the longest time has been made really since the late 70s with grapes all from Serralunga. And so two very powerful Barolos. So those are two names that everybody, you know, I mean we're talking really expensive wines. Montfortino goes for $1,000 now, right? I mean, so, and that's in Italy, so who knows what it will be in Canada. And so these are two benchmark names for those two communes, but there are many, many others, you know, in Castiglione Falletto, you have people like Giuseppe Mascarello and Cavallotto, Vietti. In Barolo you have producers like Bartolo Mascarello now run by the daughter Maria Teresa. Brezza you have really some very famous producers in La Morra, the Rinaldi, a bunch of Rinaldis, Giuseppe Francesco, Mario Maringo, Altari, you have really so many producers that are worthy of being visited. They're usually very friendly there and also to collect the wines of, so just like in Burgundy and Bordeaux and California and Canada, you know, everybody has, you know, you like Malabar, you like Kayspring, you like Bachelder, it's exactly the same thing in Barolo and it really depends on what kind of style of wine you like and the first step is to choose the wines based on the commune. Do you want them earlier maturing, do you want them rounder or do you want them nice and tough and super age-worthy and slower to develop? Once you make that choice, then you have your favorites. I know that maybe in Canada a lot of people aren't yet at the point where they will pick Beamsville Bench over Short Hills Bench, but I do because there's a real difference in those wines. And to make it easier, a Riesling from the Lincoln Lakeshore is going to be peachy and fruity and very floral and ready to drink sooner. Those from the Beamsville Bench develop more slowly and have an acid steely core. And they're both good, right? It's not a matter of one being better than the other, but it really depends on what you like and what you want in your reasoning. And so that's what I look for. I actually go look for wines from the Beanzo bench. If I want a cab wine from Ontario, from Niagara, I might go look at St. David's bench. It's warmer there. And so that's what you do everywhere in the world. If you believe in terroir, there's a logic, there's a method to the madness.

Yule Georgieva: I think one of the most difficult things with Barolo though is this commonality of names. And granted, we have this in Burgundy as well, right? So it's not isolated to Barolo, but the different conternos, the different mascarellos, there's a lot of repeat customers.

Ian D'Agata: They're released. Well, you know, that's where a good wine guide or a good magazine or a good website will help you because they give you lists. And you know, the scoring now is tough because the scores are all high across the board. But at least you get to see the names and you get to try the wines and you get to see what your palate likes best and then you can make up your own mind. Yeah, you're right though. It is confusing because there's a lot of very common last names in Barolo is remarkable.

Yule Georgieva: This might be a tricky question, but do you find that price has effectively tracked quality? Is there a fairly good correlation there where people are buying more expensive Barolos that may speak to higher quality?

Ian D'Agata: I think to the extent that Barolo is still undervalued compared to other wines of the world, think Burgundy, they're still relatively good buys. Have they become too expensive? Sure, but that's life, right? I mean, think of what a Louis Vuitton handbag or a Hermes scarf will cost you. So it's the same thing with wine. It's supply and demand. And I think that as much as it pains me to say the truly great Barolo wines are probably worth every penny and probably undervalued, that is not on absolute terms because I think it's crazy to spend a thousand dollars for a bottle of wine. But given what other wines fetch, then I think Mufortino is actually almost a good buy, right? Red label wines by Bruno Jacoza, now made by his very talented daughter, Bruna, those are Reserva wines bottled with a red label, I think are some of the greatest wines, not just in Italy, but in the world. And they're also hideously expensive. It's not their fault. I mean, it's just the way it is. The wines don't leave the winery at that crazy a price. It then just happens to build because there's so much demand for them. I think that if you can do without the label's name and the need to impress people, in Barolo you can buy a lot of very good wines from little known producers that are really remarkably good. They may not be as consistent and as regular in quality every year, so it's good to taste before you buy if you can. But there are many, many, really many very, very talented and valid producers in Barolo. That is actually an important take home message. Barolo probably, actually almost certainly, has the highest level of winemaking talent in Italy. It's really hard to come across a poor or flawed Barolo wine. Of course, that happens. But if there's one area in Italy where you can be pretty well sure you're going to get at least a well-made wine, it's Barolo. And there are so many truly great, great wines being made and so many very talented, wonderfully capable producers that if you're okay not having to really get the trophy wine or the trophy name, you can really do very well in Barolo because there are, you know, La Mora, La Mora for example has an amazing concentration of very talented producers. The level of winemaking there is really pretty high, so you don't need to spend an arm and a leg to drink well in Barolo.

Yule Georgieva: Are there any up-and-coming producers that you maybe point our collectors to?

Ian D'Agata: Sure, I mean I used to write about this when I was at Venice and other places. I'm the first one who brought Tredi Berni to the attention of the world. Freddy Verri is a producer in La Morra run by Nicola Uberto, a very talented, very smart young man. I really recommend you visit. He's a great guy, very knowledgeable. He's really not really, you know, unknown anymore, but certainly he's a talented young man. There's a young producer up in in Sera Lunga called La Contrada di Sorano. This is a producer probably not too many people have ever heard of. It's a couple and they make very small amounts of wines, but they're probably going to become more famous. They own vineyards in Serralunga. But there's really a lot of producers that maybe also fall off the radar. they were they were very popular maybe 10 years ago and now not so popular anymore. And then there's some really producers who are really, who are really rock solid. I mean, they're people like Pugno, Francesco Rinaldi, Vaira, these people have been around for a long Bravia, Cavallotto. These are just people who never make a bad wine and the wines, you know, some of the top crews can be very expensive, but the classic Barolos or the less known crews are remarkably good. Plenty of options to choose from.

Yule Georgieva: Well, actually, question for you, is Barolo very much a vintage driven wine? Like, would you encourage people to really pick out the stronger vintages or is it fairly consistent? And if it is more vintage driven, are there any vintages you would call to mind as particularly memorable?

Ian D'Agata: Yeah, yeah. I know. You got to remember the first thing I started out by saying it's very similar to burgundy. So it is vintage driven. The great thing about Barolo is because of the Nabiolo grape, which gives an amazingly perfumed, intense, concentrated aroma structure, anytime you buy Barolo from a hot year, you're selling yourself short because the wine is still going to be good in the hands of a talented producer, in the hands of a hardworking producer, but you're not going to get the same bang for your buck because you're going to lose the magical perfume that the Nabiolo grape can give. The wine will still be good, but you're losing some of that. Clearly in very cold years, which really aren't a problem anymore, but they were once, Barolo was tough because Nibiolo just didn't ripen. It's a very late ripening grape. Today it gets picked in September, and if it gets picked in mid-October, it's already considered late. But, you know, 20 years ago, the thing was, 30 years ago, the thing was being picked in November with the snow. So that's really where the word Nibbiolo takes its name from, the grape from Nibbia, fog, because of the typical fog late in the season in the Barolo area. So yeah, very vintage driven, you want the cooler, more classic vintages. People who like fleshy and ripe wines can opt for slightly warmer But I really personally would avoid hot years like 2003, 2007, 2017. Again, it's not that they're bad wines and certainly they're a very capable producer who make great wines every year. But if you really, really have to pick because you're on a budget and you can't afford to buy everything every year, then maybe I would, because of the way Barolo is, because it's an Abiolo grape, I would avoid really hot years like 2003, 2007, and 2017. The one very important thing to know, and it's not a criticism level that anybody in particular, but a lot of people who write about wines aren't maybe as experienced and are easily impressed by big, fat, fleshy, mouse-coating wines. So, typically what happens, these hot years always get written up well. If you look at the scores of wines from vintages that are hot, like 1997, 2007, 2011, 2012, they're remarkably high. I mean, there's like a never-ending lineup of 96s and 95s and 97s. And I would say that that's really unlikely, let's say, because in those years, you really shouldn't have a litany of 97-point wines because you don't have, first of all, the tannins are unfailingly gritty because they just weren't physiologically ripe. So the wine enters ripe and creamy and round, but if you pay attention, towards the end it becomes astringent and gritty and that's never a good thing. And also you're losing on the aromatics like I said, which is a shame. Plus you're getting notes of maybe cooked fruit, which isn't that great. Now the caveat is that very good producers are able to work in the vineyard and are very careful and with the leafing and things like that and so they can make a good wine anyways. But yeah, I would say that it is vintage driven so to know what the characteristics of the vintage. For example, a very good vintage is 2008, but if you don't like high acid wines and if you don't like wines that have sort of an austere backbone to them, then 2008, no matter how great and classic a year, might not be the year for you. It's not a cold year so the wines are bad. The wines are great, but they may not be really quite up your alley. So then, rather in 2008, you might want to get something like 2010, which is generally considered to be a fantastic year, but it's a warm year, a very warm year. 2011, already too hot. Some great wines made, but I would probably opt for some other wines.

Yule Georgieva: Well, I have a 2011 Bussia from Aldo Conterno in my fridge. I should probably drink that.

Ian D'Agata: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It'll age forever. Are you kidding? It'll age forever. And it's a very good wine because, like I said, Aldo Conterno. But even in that case, as much as I love the wines of Aldo Conterno, some of my favorite of all, in 2011, the tannins are tough because it was just a very hot year. If you have the same wine from 2013, it's less fleshy, less of a mouthful, but it is more balanced. And so I like balance, so I look for that. But again, it's not that the 2011s are bad. They're very good wines. Really, if I really had to say, the only wines I'd avoid are 2003s because just too hot, just too hot, too dry, and you're just losing out on everything the Viola can give you. So I love wine, right? So I can always find a redeeming quality. 2002, it rained all the time, but there's lots of very good 2002s if you pick the wines from a good producer. Because again, 2002 being a cooler year, at least you're getting the Viola's aromatics coming out. You're not getting the body in your mouth, you're not getting the flesh, but at least you have that perfume. So I like that. But you know, if you like flesh and you like power, then other vintages are just fine too.

Yule Georgieva: A few more questions for you. The first is about cellaring. So most of our listeners are collectors, right? Does Barolo tend to have a bit of a shutdown, like a dumb period when it's in the cellar? Or so would you recommend people either drink it fairly young and then again after 10 years or what's an optimal timeframe in which to enjoy it as a general?

Ian D'Agata: You can drink it already two or three years after the vintage, knowing that it's nowhere near what the wine could be. I actually recommend in that case, opening it in the morning, believe it or not, because it'll develop slowly and it'll be a lot more interesting by the time comes, evening time, dinner time. So really, as crazy as it sounds, you can just decant it early in the morning and just leave it there and it will be better in the evening. It does shut down anywhere from two and a half to four years always, sometimes five. It depends really again on which commune we're talking about. And then the wines from that eastern side, from La Mordra, from Verduno, are usually fine after five years from the vintage. And the ones from Serraluna and Monforte, really better at about 8 to 10 years after the vintage again These are very early drinking times right I I stress that a Barolo for it to really give you everything It's got you really should wait at least 10 years depending on the vintage and and 15 is even better You don't have to but it's just so you get so much more bang for your buck The other day I opened 1971 wine from La Morra. La Morra is one of those communes on earlier maturing soils. And so 71 is 81-91-71-71-71. It's over 50 years old. And the thing is absolutely beautiful. Was it like it would have been had we drunk it 20 years ago, no of course not 20 years ago, it would have been fruitier, it would have been fleshier, but even 50 years out, just a fantastic wine. We were lucky that it was a well stored bottle and it was just beautiful. But it just shows you how you can definitely keep it for a very long time. Like I say, to make a long story short, 10 years and any Barolo is really coming into its own but do decant it always a couple of hours ahead. What would be the oldest Barolo you've ever had and what was that like? It's funny you ask this because I was trying to think about this because of the book I wrote somebody asked me this the other day and I can't remember I'd like to say 19 and granted Barolo didn't exist as such right But it would be an Abiolo wine made in the Barolo area, I think from, I think 1901, 1907. I honestly really don't remember anymore. It wasn't all that great. The really great first Barolo I have is from the 1920s and from 1947 on. You see, the problem is that Italy historically has been a poor country and people needed to sell the wine. We didn't have a lot of nobles, kings and queens that had cellars and were storing the stuff. So, in Italy, very few wineries have stocks of old wines. There are some that do and of course those wines are sought after because they're old, but if truth be told, that's really not something that the best wineries were selling their wine. That's why even the all-famous names of Barolo, they had basically no stocks of wine before 1980, because really until the 1980s, they were just selling left and right. Now, they're setting bottles aside, but they weren't doing that before. So when you buy these old bottles, it's a lot of fun. It's a big thrill. I do it all the time. But it's just up in the air. You don't know how the thing was stored. You know, I think people should have wished that inventory had been created already 100 years ago so people could have stored their wine with you and kept it in fine shape. That would have been better for everybody. It's very different, you know, if you buy an old Bordeaux, that thing has been sitting in the chateau for 50, 60 years in a temperature controlled environment. The wines are relatively always great, depending on what the cork is done and stuff like that. That's not the case with Barolo. So the wines are so great that when you get a probably you see Nirvana so it's worth it and I do it every chance I get and like I said this 71 was just fantastic. As the wines become older and the Nabiolo develops aromas of mushrooms of truffle never the leather or the damp under brush of for example Sangiovese. If you get an old Barolo that is musty and and underbrushy like wet leaves. It's just a badly stored bottle where the cork hasn't done its job. The red fruit and the bright red rose and violet aromas give way to faded flowers and more like an elixir or an essence of red fruit, but it's still a fruity and floral wine that will pick up notes of, like I say, mushrooms and truffle and licorice and tar. Everybody talks about tar in Barolo, but in fact, tar is never there in a young Barolo. It takes age for it to develop, and it's a really beautiful nuance when it's there because it just adds complexity and elegance. So yeah, an older Barolo, Barolo often will remind you of blood orange and peach, peach, believe it or not, there's a lot of peach in young Barolos. So it is not a grape that gives you black pepper, it is not a grape that gives you cocoa and chocolate and coffee, those you find in the Cabernets, the Merlots, you don't find that in Barolo and if you do, it's mostly because of the oak.

Yule Georgieva: So question for you about the future of Barolo and how this is evolving, right? Because Barolo's had quite a meteoric rise of late. And you spoke about how Italy was quite poor and Barolo was quite poor back in the day. But then now, I mean, as you mentioned, some of the bottles are fetching $1,000. And as we were speaking about before we started recording, even the cost of land has really gone up. So what are some trends that are afoot? And where do you see this now steering?

Ian D'Agata: I'm a very positive, optimistic guy. For me, the glass is always half full But when it comes to Barolo, I think the only people can truly be happier the people won't land there Because I will see unfortunately Barolo doing anything but going up in price and That is because it's a finite area. You can only make so much Barolo. There's always gonna be more and more demand. And so the prices are just going to go up and up and up, lower than in Burgundy. But I think, and I could be wrong, and maybe I hope I'm wrong, but I think that Barolo's destiny to be Burgundy-sized and maybe not the crazy, crazy prices of what some Muzini and Richebourg wines are fetching today, but the prices will do nothing but increase. You mentioned the land. Well, first of all, let me tell you, in the 1970s, producers couldn't sell Barolo. Nobody wanted it. They made their money with Dolcetto and to a lesser extent, Barbera. In fact, when you bought a large number of Dolcetto bottles or cases, the producers would be in the habit of throwing in a case of Barolo as a gift because people just weren't buying it. I'm not talking about a century ago, I'm talking about the 1970s. Clearly today that's no longer the case. One hectare of land, two and a half acres if you will, now goes for about two million euros depending on how famous the crew area is even not so famous areas will they ask you for four hundred thousand five hundred thousand euros There are people It's well known who'd be willing to pay even five million for Land in the best best most famous crews so when that happens And it will sooner or later because you don't love your land only so much, but sooner or later somebody will start selling, then that cost of land will be translated into the bottle and the wine will become more and more expensive. So, yeah, I see Barolo becoming more expensive, unfortunately. I think also one thing that hurts Barolo in some respects, it certainly hurts the consumer is that unlike in Burgundy, we don't have a classification, a scale of quality, a hierarchy. So in Barolo, you don't have what you have in Burgundy or even Bordeaux whereby you know that if you want a premier crew in Bordeaux, you got to pay more than a deuxième crew classé and more than a troisième crew classé. Then if the individual producer is really stellar, even though you may be a cinquième cru classé, such as, I don't know, L'Anche Vage, you're still going to fetch more than some even deuxième crus because you're just more talented and everybody knows the wines are great. Think of Palmere and Margaux. It's a third premier cru. It's a third troisième cru, but it's got the price basically of what they call a super second. And same thing with burgundy, you know that if you want to buy musingui, it'll cost you a pretty penny. If you are happy with a premier cru, depending on how famous that premier cru is, you know les amoureux will cost you more than a chambal musingui le baud, and it will cost you more, much more than a chambal musingui ficelotte, and so on and so forth. In Bordeaux you don't have that. Unfortunately, there's no hierarchy of quality, so you just basically have to know what the 20 really top, top crews are, and those should come to be more expensive. In fact, that's not the case. Just about any Barolo crew gets sold at only a minimal price difference from the really – so really what ends up being different in Barolo is the name of the producer. So if you have a very famous producer making wine from a very famous crew, then that wine becomes very expensive and noticeably different in price than other Barolos. But if truth be told, there's a lot of Barolos coming from crews that really aren't that great or weren't that famous that are just as expensive as Barolos from well-known crews just because the person making the Barolo from a less important crew is very famous or thought of as very talented. In a way you have that, you have that in Burgundy because Leroy gets extremely high prices even for a simple Saint, simple it's not really simple, even for a Saint-Denis or a Sardinie, it's still a marvelous wine, you know Rumier or Mille Camus, they can make a fixin in the case of Meo Camuse, and it's expensive. It's also a remarkably great wine. And in Barolo, to an extent that is true. You would expect the Barolo... you would expect the Giacomo or the Massolino or the Altare or the Sandorone or the Scadino, one of the many Scadinos, to make good wine no matter what the crew is. But in fact, there is a reason for why you have Grand Cruises and Premier Cruises. It really is a matter of terroir and that is your site is better exposed, it's at a better altitude, you just make historically better wine there. That is the concept of crew. It's a specific area that gives you a higher quality wine year after year that is actually independent of the vintage because the wine will always be better than another wine made in a lesser crew even if the vintage is a bad one. In a grand crew, it will always be a better wine and it will be recognizable year after year after year as coming from that spot. That is essentially the definition of a crew. So in Barolo, like I said earlier, in Verduno there is this crew called Monvigliero. When you taste the wines in the portfolio of a Barolo producer, it strikes you how the Monvigliero is always one of the three best wines that producer makes. That's not by accident. It's because the Monvigliero crew is really great. So that wine deserves to fetch a very high price. And if you're making wine from a lesser site, it's just not as good, even though the producer might be very famous and the wine very good because that producer is very talented, the wine is still not going to be as great as it would be from a better crew. But unfortunately in Baroto, because you don't have that classification on the label, there is a little bit of a gray area and the wines end up being more or less the same price. And I will finish this very long soliloquy by saying that you see that also in the scoring systems and this is something that I always point out because nobody ever does and nobody ever talks about it. When you read wine scores in wine magazines and websites, it is very rare that a producer's Saint-Aubin or Saint-Denis gets scored higher than his Chevalier-Maurachais. It can happen, but it basically never happens because the writer won't do that because, you know, he or she is running a huge risk and he's got to be really sure of what they're saying because if not, he or she will get laughed out of town, right? But in Barolo, that's not the case. In Barolo, there are average crews that get 100 points. And that just, that would never happen in Burgundy. Nobody would ever give a producer's moire village quality lieu d'hier 100 points compared, just doesn't happen because the writers even know. And so that's the only thing that's tricky with Barolo. You just got to know the crews. There's about 20 that are worth knowing. You got to know the names of the producers. You got to know the vintages. And then that sounds complicated, but it really isn't because it's only 20 names. The producers themselves, once you've got 20 down your set, the vintages, and then buying Boroto becomes relatively easy.

Yule Georgieva: I think that's where it really helps to have a guide like you or your book about the native grape charrot. That was very helpful just in laying all of this out, right? Because I think to your point, most consumers, I mean, we've been doing it too. We've been using Burgundy and Bordeaux as our benchmarks to explain Barolo, whereas really that shouldn't be understood in its own right. And hopefully as we move forward, consumers are more able to do so and really be able to pick apart the terroirs and then also know the producers, as you say.

Ian D'Agata: No, I do that. I do that. And I want to be clear. I do that not because I think that Burgundy or Bordeaux are better or more important and we have to do things like the French do, I really do it because it gives a frame of reference to people because if not it's just too hard. I can sit here and tell you, you know, Carpegna gives you this sort of wine and Apalotti gives you this other sort of wine, but it doesn't mean anything to you. So if I say, you know, these wines are like Mousigny and these wines are like Pauillac, then it becomes a bit more easier to understand. And of course, you're absolutely right. The goal is that by doing this, over the next course, over the next few years, people will become as knowledgeable about Barolo as they already are about Bordeaux and Burgundy. And I'm sure that will happen. It just takes a little bit of time. Already now, and this is actually important, already now, we are clearly seeing that people who like wine and buy Barolo are starting to buy Barolo by crew name, as well as by producer name. Up to about 10 years ago, it was only the producer that counted. Now they're starting to pay attention to the crew as well because they're starting to know them and they're starting to know what to expect. So it's going to get better and better and better.

Yule Georgieva: Right. Well, let's round out with just a quick roundup of some of the top wines you've had recently because I had a couple of really good Piemontese wines. We hosted a dinner in New York last week with one of our investors, JJ Redick, and I had a 96 Brovia Roque and a 2005 Barbaresco from Roanje, the Paillet, which is my favorite crème roque. And we're going to have to do a Barbaresco episode, Ian, so we'll have to have you back.

Ian D'Agata: I like Barbaresco. Actually, I'm one of the biggest world fans of Barbaresco. I love it for many, many reasons. Those are two great wines, by the way. Two very good producers. Two outstanding producers. So, Luca Aruagna, for example, is one of the brightest young minds in Barolo and Barbaresco. For me, I've had so many. Now, I could tell you all the super expensive.

Yule Georgieva: Yeah, no, I think it's a good thing. ‍Don't make us feel bad.

Ian D'Agata: Yeah, no, I think, you know, because those you can imagine which ones, right, like I mentioned earlier, the red labels of the Bruno Giacosa or the Montfortino or the Busia wines from Aldo Conterno, the Canubi wines from, Canubi Boschis wines from Sandrone. But in fact, the exciting thing about Barolo is, like I told you, the level of winemaking is very high and those who were maybe not making wines that were as good as they could have are now starting to make them better and better. So to answer your question with two answers, the first answer is I'm really happy to try wines from producers that maybe aren't well known and I realize that the wines are so much better today than they were already five or six years ago. So wines such as Scarzello in Barolo, Marrone in La Morra, Mario Marengo in La Morra, the Corino Barolo from the crew of Brico Manescotto. Brico Manescotto is not a famous crew. On top of it all, it was a 2017, which is a very hot year. And remember what I told you earlier. So I approached that wine really thinking, boy, this is not going to be memorable. And instead, it was fantastic. I really would never expected a wine from a hot year but Giuliano Corino who runs the Giovanni Corino winery is a remarkably talented guy and just made a fantastic wine in 2017. So it goes back to what I was saying, you can get great wines even in a hot year but it's harder and it's rare. So that one stuck to my mind, like I said the Barolo Sarmasa, very good crew from the Barolo commune by Scarzello in 2018. 2018 is a very difficult vintage and yet he made a stellar stellar wine. So those two stick out. A really great wine that I always love and I never tire is the Vigna Elena by Cogno and that's a very remarkable Barolo. I'll just take one minute to mention that. Cogno makes probably the best wines in the Novello commune. Cogno was a man who was from Novello. He worked for many, many years at another famous estate in La Morra called Marcherini. When he left there, he bought his estate in Novello. Novello is an area that nobody really thought highly of for Nobiolo, but it is one of the 11 communes that can make Nobiolo. He knew it well, and he basically bought the best vineyards there in Novello and so today the Cogno estate is blessed because it has these great vineyards and the best part of the Ravera crew. But one vineyard in particular is called the Elena crew which is a single vineyard within the Ravera crew and so that's an example of a Barolo that is a Barolo Reserva from the crew of Ravera and it's a single vineyard so it's Vigna Elena. So it's Barolo, Reserva, Ravera, Vigna Elena. Nice and long. But it's a vineyard that you can see right from the balcony of the winery and it's really interesting because it's planted to the Nebbiolo Rose variety. Nebbiolo has always been thought of as one grape but in reality there's like many, many different sub-varieties of the Nibiolo. And there is one in particular that is really a distinct variety. It is Nibiolo's closest relative, but if we really want to be precise from genetic term, it is a distinct variety. In fact, it is still Nibiolo. I mean, the things are virtually indistinguishable. But Nibiolo Rosé, like the name says, gives you a paler wine, a very perfumed wine. It is still Nibiolo, so it is very tannic, it is very powerful, very age-worthy. But it's noticeably more perfumed and noticeably lighter in color. So this Vina Elena by Cogno is a reservo wine and it's a remarkable wine because it's made, it's only one of four or five Barolos made with an Abbiolo Rosé variety. So it's very unique, but it's one that you can find because it's made in enough bottles. And it's just a remarkably perfumed, beautiful wine that ages very well and very slowly. So that one really sticks in my mind because I had the 1999 recently. And that's really like, I think only the third vintage they ever made. And it's just beautiful. One of the best wines I've had all year. Well, that was such a good roundup.

Yule Georgieva: We will have to do that Barbaresco episode, because I know that you have so much knowledge about Barbaresco, not enough people do, but thank you so much for joining us. This was really fantastic. So to all of our listeners and viewers, don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss any episodes and please write us a review and leave any feedback on topics you'd like to hear more about, like Barbaresco with Ian. And don't forget to follow Ian, ian underscore dagada and at TerroirSense and get his books and subscribe to the TerroirSense platform because there is so much about this region and you unpack so many other regions as well, not just Barolo and Barbaresco.

Ian D'Agata: I like wine. I love German Riesling. I love Gerichtsstraminer. I love Gamay. It's a great way to spend time with your friends and people. It can be a $10 bottle of wine. It can be a $200 bottle of wine, but it's always a lot of fun. You make new friends. You discover new things. You visit really beautiful places. I can talk about wine until the cows come home. I just have fun. And all my friends are like this. You're like this, you see? So yeah, I'm sure we can talk about the Toronto police and the fact they got kicked out of the playoffs. Now we don't have a general manager, which is horrible. And who knows what's going to happen with the Austin Matthews contract? We can talk about that. But it's so much more fun to talk about Barolo and Pinot Noir.

Yule Georgieva: Well, the next time you're in Toronto, we'll go to a game and we'll be the only people sitting in the stands with two glasses of Barolo instead of a Coors Light.

Ian D'Agata: There you go. We have a date.

Yule Georgieva: Perfect. To learn more about InVintory, to start managing your wine collection, go to invintory.com, download the app on the app store. You can also follow us at InVintory on Instagram, but thank you all so much for joining. Ian, thank you again so much. This was a great episode of Chats from the Wine Cellar, and I hope we do it again soon.

Ian D'Agata: Thank you to Yule and thank you to InVintory. I hope we get to do it again sometime. Ciao.