Yule Georgieva: Hi, I'm Yule Georgieva and this is Chats from the Wine Cellar, the official inventory podcast where we talk to leading figures in the world of wine about their particular areas of expertise and of course their personal wine collections. An industrialist turned collector turned visionary, our guest today, François Audouze, is known around the wine world for his incredible collection of 40,000 bottles, many of which date back to the early 20th century. But he's also known for his particular philosophy on wine. In his view, there is no wine that has passed its prime. Every wine is just an experience waiting to be had, and to approach it with humility and emotion, as opposed to with an intellectual desire to judge and to rate, is the only way to unlock its true potential. In this episode, we talk to François about his personal collection, his unique method of opening wine, the Audouze method, the legendary wine dinners he hosts in France, and of course, some of his most memorable bottles. François, thank you so much for joining me.

François Audouze: Yes, thank you very much.

Yule Georgieva: Welcome to the InVintory Podcast. You are officially our first guest.

François Audouze: Yes, good.

Yule Georgieva: So I thought we would just get started by getting to know who you are and what your connection to wine is. So why don't you tell me a little bit about how you got into wine and what really sparked this passion for you.

François Audouze: So, you know, I had the opportunity when I was 27 to buy a house. So I was working in the industry and I could buy a house. And in this house, there was a cellar. So as the cellar was empty, normally everybody would like to fill it. And I did not know anything on wine. What I did, I went to a group of wine shop, which is Nicola, which is a famous group in France. So I went to the shop near my house and I saw the bottles there, I did not know anything. So what I did, I wanted to try wines and to see how my taste would be. So I bought, for example, we received some friends. I need, for example, for the dinner, three bottles. I buy six. And then I open the six and I see which one I prefer. And I go in the direction of what I prefer. It was a very practical method to try to know something on wine. So I did not know what was a Grand Cru Classé, I did not know anything, and I made it by experimenting with wines. And then my taste began better, and at that time I had a nice income, so I could buy a Latour, a Cheval Blanc, which was the dearest in the shop. And I began to drink wine and I was pleased by that. And as I was a big customer for Nicolas, they had a catalogue every year, a Christmas catalog with very old wines. So you could buy a Griot Larose 28, you could buy a Cheval Blanc 21, you could buy a Lafite 1915. So I began to good they were. But the real shock, the real point which made me love old wine was I went to a shop, a grocery, where on Friday afternoon they opened the wines for amateurs. A friend told me, you should come. It was blind tasting and I nearly fell from my chair when I drank a wine which was incredible, I really faint, nearly fainted, and it was Climent's 23. And Climent's 23 was so great that I realized that all what I had drunk has nothing to do compared with such complicated tastes. And then I began to go in the world of old wines. And I was helped by, because a friend of the grocery was an expert in wine. We became friends and he accompanied me in option to let me not make mistakes. And for the first four years, I bought in auctions helped by the expert.

Yule Georgieva: That's a wonderful story. I'm afraid to ask, but I have to. What years were this when you were getting started?

François Audouze: Pardon me?

Yule Georgieva: In what year were you getting started?

François Audouze: In 70, I began the cellar and the shock for old wine was, let's say, 74, 75. And since 75, I bought nearly only old wines.

Yule Georgieva: So I have to ask, how much were you paying for Latour at that time?

François Audouze: I don't remember. It was nothing, but compared to the usage at that time, it was expensive, of course. But what I did, I wanted to explore everything. As I did not know really the wines, I wanted to explore everything. So I bought, in auction, at one moment in the auction, you have lots with different wines, cheap lots with many different wines that nobody knows. And I bought some of them just for the pleasure to taste and to try. For example, if you take the sweet wines, everybody thinks of Ikem, of course, Ikem and the Sauterne. But there are so many appellations in which you have fantastic wines. For example, you take Saint Croix du Mont, you take Mont Basillac, Loupiac, and in this appellation I could buy for example a Loupiac 1923 for let's say 5 francs. So it is not even one euro. So I began like that to explore many, many directions of wine. Of course, I looked for the trophy wines to try to have them, but I wanted to explore everything.

Yule Georgieva: And were you mostly buying European wines or did you branch out into the new world?

François Audouze: No, as I wanted to have wine, world. No, as I wanted to have old wine, the real treasure for old wine is France. For sweet wines, I could explore because the danger is little with sweet wines. So I could explore Sicilia, Hungary, and the wines of the Massandra collection. So I could go there. So in many, many different directions. And for example, in Canada, I bought Icewine. But for red and white, it is clearly in France that you have the best treasures. And you know what I say often, if you show me a wine of 1903 of France, I know what it is. If you give me a 1903 of Italy, I have no real connection to say it is good or not. In any year in France, I know what happens.

Yule Georgieva: So you're much more familiar also with France.

François Audouze: Yes, much more. And the treasures are there.

Yule Georgieva: So tell me a little bit about your collection today.

‍François Audouze: Yeah. So after all, I will tell you some figures which are interesting, which I didn't know, but for our meeting, I calculated. So I have four cellars, all together it makes around 40,000 bottles, but the main cellar has probably I have 20% champagne, 10% white only, 60% red, and 10% sweet wine. I did not imagine that I had 60% in red, but it is because it was so easy to buy Bordeaux you have a classification, so it's easy to see. Burgundy, for example, is much more complicated, but I discovered Burgundy. But so it is champagne 20, white 10, red 60 and licorice 10. And if you look at regions, champagne is 22% of my cellar, which is rather big. Bordeaux is 35%. Burgundy is 23%. And other regions, so it is not negligible, 20%.

Yule Georgieva: Okay, wow.

François Audouze: So it is diversified, the main being Bordeaux, but you know, champagne increases a lot in my cellar because I discovered old champagne and old champagne are fantastic. And for the same price, you cannot find any wine which can compete with an old champagne. For example, if you think of a 64 Moet, 64 Dom Pérignon, 61 Salon or something like that. You will never find any other wine as great for the same price. I mean in France, of course.

Yule Georgieva: Tell me about each of those. For the white wines that you have that are older, is that mostly white Burgundy? Is it mostly white Bordeaux, white Rhone, Germany perhaps, Azaz? What do you have in there?

François Audouze: You know, I would say rudely, but white wine is Burgundy. Nothing can compete. Even Aubriant White, which is a nice, nice wine, but I like, I like also the Rhone white, because Chateauneuf white, Hermitage white, they are very splendid, very, very splendid. But the main region for white is Burgundy, it's sure. So tell me also, let's talk a bit more about Champagne,

Yule Georgieva: because old Champagne is something that I think is very interesting and a lot of collectors may not think of how long you can actually age it. But tell me a little bit about what happens to champagne as it gets older.

François Audouze: Yes, there is something which is very important. When you drink an old champagne, you do not And I say very often, if you want to drink a champagne of, let's say, 64 or 66, if you want that this champagne has the taste of a 96, I suggest you buy a 96, because you are in another world. The world of old champagne is another one. For example, the bubbles are weaker, of course, but you have the sparkling effect in mouth. So, and it is important to have the sparkling. And an old champagne is sweeter and more complex and more integrated than a young champagne. strength of the bubble is not present in old Champagne. But you have fantastic tasters in old Champagne. My greatest old Champagne, excluding the one found in the sea, is a Dom Pérignon 29. It is a jugular 1820, which was found in a boat. And when it was so well preserved, that when I drank it, I had the impression that I drank this 1820 when it was in 1840. And for me, it was a dream to come back in the past of this way, the wine was fantastic. But if you take generally old champagne, you should go slowly. You should begin with the 80s, then the 70s, then the 60s to understand how it was. But it is a world fantastic. My epiphany for old champagne was Moet 1914, which is a fantastic wine, fantastic wine that I have drank many times.

Yule Georgieva: And I love what you said about the connection to history, since that is one of the exciting things about old wine, right? You can taste the year in 1914. That was of course the first year of the First World War. So you can enjoy that wine right before four years of devastation across Europe. It must be quite special.

Yeah. Well, so let's talk a bit more about older wines. So we spoke about Champagne and your White Burgundy. Before we get into some of the more details, but let's just talk about this whole concept of drink windows and get that out of the way. Since this is a very common theme, many people want to know when they should drink their wine and at what point it has quote-unquote expired, right? There's this sense

François Audouze: that wine has come past the old line. What's your philosophy? You push me to talk about my vision on wine, any Bordeaux, any great Burgundy, I have drank probably 70 or 80 different vintages of this wine. For example, I have drank more than 100 vintages and so on. And why were the best wine 1928 or 1929. Why? So I had to invent a theory saying, a theory saying all the people at that time, they worked well, they have the oral tradition, the grandfather showed what they should do and as they worked very well, they believed in the grandfather and the father, and they made miracles to make this one. And it was very romantic to, to think that the old ones were better than the technique technician of today. And for me, something was missing, because it was too romantic. And one day I had the discovery, the discovery was that it is age which makes great wine. And I will explain you, for example, a 209 is a great one. One day it will be as great as 1982, which will be one day as great as 1961, which will be one day as great as 1945, which will be one day as great as 1928. means that the older a wine is, the greater it is. Of course, there is a problem of storage, of cork, of the way you keep it, but the general for great wines, the general evolution is Nobody said such things, because, for example, Robert Parker made such a bad thing for wine, talking about a plateau of maturity, which is a nonsense. My greatest ever Lafite is 1844. My greatest white wine is a Burgundy, it is a Montrachet of 1865. So tell me, when was their plateau of maturity? It does not exist. So if the conditions, if all the conditions are there, the older is better than the younger. So you should never, never have in mind, I must hurry to drink a wine. Keep your wine, drink when you want, but you have no stress about aging of wine. Of course, you have the stress of keeping well your wines, and this is very important. But if the wines are well kept, there is no necessity to hurry. You can keep an I drink 1934 with completely, with the being completely relaxed because I know it will be good. You see what I mean? So it changes completely the approach towards wine.

Yule Georgieva: It's very interesting. So your vision is that wine is alive. It doesn't have this expiration date, it just continues to evolve, but you have to get yourself into the mindset that it's something different. It's a different experience than what you may be expecting from a young wine.

Is that fair?

François Audouze: Yes, yes. But you know, as I told you, old champagne has nothing to do with the young champagne. But for red wine, there is an evolution, which is a smooth evolution. But you know, I made one day at Clos de Tarre, a vertical tasting of 56 different vintages of cloth tarts. And that cloth tart, they asked me to open all the way. I opened, according to my method, all the way. And the winner, the winner for me was 1915.

You see what I mean?

So, and I am relaxed for that. So it is not because I had a madness for old wine. Practically, it was the best. And I've made so many vertical tastings, and generally the winners are 1928 or 1947, which are fantastic years and they perform. If they were kept, they perform. So it changes many things. And I will add to that my method, you will certainly ask me about it.

Yule Georgieva:
I will ask you about your method, so please go ahead.

François Audouze: Because it helps. I will give you a figure. I've made 266 dinners, my wine dinners, and it means probably 2,900 wines opened with an average age of 50 years. 50 years, it means that generally white wines I open young because people do not understand easily their own white wine, but for liquor it could be more than 100 years. So, average is 50 years. If you consider the wines that I've put away as being undrinkable, it is less than 50. 2,900 less than 50, so less than 2% wine. Of course, I choose in my cellar the best wines because I will not open a wine on which I have a doubt, but it shows that the solidity of old wine is incredible. And this is due to my method. My method is so. You open your wine four to five hours before service. You keep it in the proper temperature in a room.

Yule Georgieva: Are you using a regular corkscrew or are you using an osso or a durance?

François Audouze: No, no, no. I use my own tool with a very long... A corkscrew, yeah? Yes. And so in order to take all out and it works. What I do, I open very slowly. For example, I can take 10 minutes to open one pot and it does not shock me. For example, for a dinner, the opening of 10 bottles is more than one hour, it is one hour and a half because I take time. I let the cork go slowly up and then it works and you keep the wine at the proper temperature and you sell five hours or six hours after opening. And it makes miracles. And I will tell you some miracles. At one of my first dinners, it was in probably the 20th dinner, I decided to open a Romain Le Conti and I chose a Romain Le Conti 56. And I made the dinner in Le Cacarton, where the chef, sweet star, Alain St-Hernand, and he was there when I opened the wine at four o'clock. And I pulled the cork and I said, it stinks so much, it stinks so much. And even me, I said, the wine is dead. So I hurried to go in a shop to buy a nice latache of a great year to replace the Romanée-Contée because the people would be furious that they don't drink something. And I came back with the latache, which I opened, and when the When the dinner arrived, at the moment where the Romanico tea should be served, a friend of mine said, so you said to us that the wine is dead, but we want to verify if it is true. The wine was served and everybody said, where is the problem? Where is the problem? The wine is good. And I called Alain St-Hernand, the chef, and he smelled my glass and he said to all the table, you cannot imagine that the wine that you have in your glass is the same as the ugly wine that we had by the opening. So it was a miracle. And I have many miracles and I tell you another one. One day I made a dinner in Hotel Maurice and Yannick Allennaud was the chef at that time. And I opened that four club, the wine, and there was a sommelier, and I let it smell what I opened. And there was a Beaujolais of 1947. I open, it stinks, it stinks. And the sommelier says, and he says to me, you will never, never serve that wine, I suppose. And I said, you will see. And you know, at the end of my dinners, we vote for the five best wines we have. And it is not a vote of quality, it is a vote of pleasure because between a champagne, a white wine, a red wine, you cannot make a hierarchy. So you vote for your pleasure. And the Beaujolais 1947 that the sommelier would have thrown away was third in the vote of all the tables after Latour 34 and after some immense wine. So it means that slow oxygenation really makes miracles.

Yule Georgieva: Well, I regret that I have poured a few wines down the sink in my day.

François Audouze: Yes, but you know, I've written a book and I said probably 50% of the wines which were thrown away were great wines.

Yule Georgieva: So what do you think that is? I mean, it sounds like you smelled cork taint or something on the bottle, but did it just blow off? Is that your hypothesis? Do you have any insight into what is happening with those wines when you open them?

François Audouze: Yes.

But when I opened, when I presented my method, many people said it is impossible that it works. But they thought that it is air going down in the bottle. But it is not that. It is all the bad molecules which go up and disappear.

Yule Georgieva: So let's walk through the process some more. So the first step is you very carefully remove the cork, taking all the time you need in order to get it out. Then you don't touch the bottle, you don't pour any, you don't decant it, you don't do anything, you just let the bottle sit for five hours at the proper temperature, perhaps back in the cellar. After five hours, you'll retrieve the bottle and then what will you do? Will you decant?

François Audouze: No, never. Okay.

Never. Never. So, I asked the sommelier to serve the wine and I tell you what we do. As we serve without decanting, you know, we change the participant who will be served first. So, the first has the lightest part of the wine and the last has the heaviest part of the wine knowing that the least that remain I drink them. Oh, you do?

Yes.

Yule Georgieva: You're chewing at the end of your wine.

François Audouze: Yeah, yeah.

But you know, for me, the sound of the wine is in the leaves. And so the service is made turning around. So for example, no woman serves first because they would have always the beginning of the bottle. The sommelier serves in turning and it turns beginning, for example, three seats later, three seats later. And it works and people are satisfied because they have different parts, but I have preserved the authenticity of the wine and I did not make moves which would alter the taste of the wine.

Yule Georgieva: Okay. So even for young wines, do you ever decant those? Like let's say you were to open a 2015.

François Audouze: For example, for ones of less than 20 years, you do what you want, you shake it, you put it in any place, it will not change many things. But for old wine, you should use the slow-oxygen method, which is named Odu's method.

Yule Georgieva: The Audouze method, that's wonderful. I'm going to make sure that's trademarked.

François Audouze: You know, on the forum of Robert Parker, when I explained my method, after many, many, many critics, then people used it and it worked. And one member said, oh, this weekend I have eau d'ouze my wines. And so eau d'ouze, the wine, was there. And then in France, a very important journalist made a dictionary for wine, and he said, to eau d'ouze, the wine, it is to open like a throat.

Yule Georgieva: You know, I think you've made it in life if you've become a verb. Congratulations. Exactly. Well, that's a very, I encourage all of our listeners and viewers to try the eau d'ouze method next time they're opening an older wine. So this way, what would you consider an old wine? At what age would you say people should start trying to use this method?

François Audouze: You know, for me, what is an old wine? My vision is probably very different from other people because I consider that, for example, a 75 is a young wine. So forget my vision. No, an old wine is when the fruit is not in front. So the complexity comes, but the fruit is not in front. So I would say for champagne and wine, it is after 20 years or 30 years old wine. For red, it is after 40 to 50 years. And for licorice, it is after 50, 60 years. But the one who has never drank a sweet wine because you enter a new world which has no relation to your own wine. So if you drink Ikem 88 for example, it is a very nice Ikem, very nice Ikem. But if you drink Ikem 1893, you are bluffed by the complexity of the wine. My greatest Ikem ever is 1861, which was so incredible. And I had an enormous chance. It has the original cork, which is incredible to have 1861 with original cork was like a spaghetti, you know? But the top of the cork played the role of a cork. And it was incredible. Generally speaking, I prefer original cork to recorked bottles. If you want that we talk about recorked bottles, I am against recorking. And for example, the people who want that the domain recork the wine, no. If a wine has a lower level, drink it. Don't send it to... because you will never know what you will have back.

Yule Georgieva: So if the bellagio has gotten too cold, you say just drink it, don't try to take it back

François Audouze: to the shed, get a recorking. Is that in part because it disturbs the wine to even pull the cork? No, no, but you know, you have not the same feeling. I dream of someone who would make an experience, for example, he buys 12 bottles of a wine. 10 years later, he opens just the corks and he puts back the corks. But, chock, chock. And 20 years later, you will see the difference between the two. Even a small cock out and on will change the taste of the wine.

Yule Georgieva: So I hesitate to ask, but what do you think about systems like Coravin or the Argonne

François Audouze: systems that preserve wines for a long time? Yeah. So for me, this system is good in a restaurant. If you want to try a very rare wine, you have only a glass. This makes sense. At home, for me, for example, it has absolutely important when I open, let's say, a wine of 1921. I open. What is important is the discovery of the wine. If I keep it for another time, I knew already what happened. So there is no more discovery. So there is for me no interest for my home, my way. But for example, someone who is alone to drink at home, if he does that, I agree. Let him do it because he will keep one wine for several days. But for me and for my dinners, there is no real necessity for that.

Yule Georgieva: So what are some other, do you have any other advice or tips on, or important things with respect to preserving old wines, right? You talked a lot about storage. I'm assuming all of your bottles are in a cellar, temperature controlled, humidity controlled. Anything else that's important for old wines?

François Audouze: So I will give you my idea about drinking wine, which I think is very important. I will tell you what I say in my dinner, because it shows how it works. I say to the people, we are going to make a gastronomic dinner. We are not going to make a tasting, which means that we judge the wine. We are going to have a gastronomic dinner. So it means that a wine is a part of a couple, which is food and wine. So enjoy food and wine. So I say, eat slowly, drink slowly. Because if you swallow your glass without having eaten, you will miss something. So it is important Be humble. Be humble. Do not judge a wine. Try to understand it. And the important word is try. Because if you try, you are humble. Because the approach to a wine, not many people have drunk wines of 28, I'm sorry, but when they discover a wine of 28 in my dinners, if they are humble, they will understand. If they have a preconceived idea, they will not understand. And for me, it is extremely important. And there is another thing. Towards people who give notes. In a school, the master gives the note and the pupil listens to the master. If you give a note to a wine, you consider yourself as the master and the wine as the pupil. And for me, it is completely the contrary. I am the pupil, and the wine is the master, and I try to understand what says the master. And this approach helps me to love wine, to understand wine and to enjoy wine. So I'm completely again, of course, people play this role to give notes or something, but philosophically to drink wine should be, you listen to the message of the wine, listen to the message of wine. And if you listen to the message, you will understand it. If you drink a Lafite 1844, you have no preconceived idea. You have to listen, because if you judge, you will pass away, you will not enjoy the wine. And it is so important for me, it is philosophical. appreciate my vision and I have so many people who follow me on Instagram because I never criticize. I say, of course, it was weak, but there is always a message in the wine. So it is very important. And people in my dinners, they completely agree with this approach.

Yule Georgieva: I think that's such a wonderful approach. I mean, we always talk about an inventory that wine is an experience, and here you are a living representation of that idea. Let's talk a little bit about your dinner since our collectors may not all know what it is that you do. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your dinners and what it is that you offer?

François Audouze: So the principle of my dinners is around 10 people and around 10 wines and a number of dishes, which could be six, seven, seven dishes to cook with. I will give the profile of a normal dinner. You have two champagnes, one mature and one older, then two white wines with a big difference of age, let's say 1970s and 1940s. Then, two Bordeaux, also with a difference of age. Why difference of age? In order that you don't compare. You like one more, okay, but you are not saying, I will explain something, I finish by that Then you have two other reds, could be Rhone, Burgundy, Gros, and then two Lycoris, one young, one very old. So there is never competition between the ones. And I will explain to you a view. If you are in a vertical testing, it is important to say if Obrion 29 is better than Aubryon 47 or not. But it is an intellectual approach. It is not a hedonistic approach. If you have the hedonistic approach, you enjoy 47, you enjoy 29, and you don't care to say if the one is better than the other because you enjoy it. And for me it is very important. You see what I mean? Of course, I've made many, many verticals. If people want to do it, do that, but it is not hedonistic. It is intellectual. You see what I mean? So, I want that in my dinner. There is no competition. Because if I prefer Aubriant 29 to Aubriant 71, no problem, they are not in competition.

Yule Georgieva: Do you find that most of your guests who come to your dinners, they come with that humility and the open mind?

François Audouze: Yes, yes, yes. Because you know, I am a complete dictator.

Yule Georgieva: At least you're an honest one.

François Audouze: Yes.

No, they agree because they are there to enjoy. And generally they have already the reports of my previous dinners, so they know what

Yule Georgieva: they will leave. So in terms of helping people figure out how to get some old wines into their collections, you obviously already have such a wonderful collection, but it sounds like you bought many of your wines on auction. So do you still buy on auction?

François Audouze: Do you buy any new releases?

Yule Georgieva: What do you do?

François Audouze: No, I began to buy in auctions because I wanted to explore every region, everything. But you know, as I'm very not serious, you know, I bought too much. Every time I went to auction, I bought 200 bottles of stuff. I said stop. Now, I have the suppliers who know me, in whom I trust, and they know what I like and do the make propositions one by one of what I like. and so it allows, I pay a more expensive price because there is a salesman, but it helps me to quiet my buys.

Yule Georgieva: Do you buy ever direct from the chateau or the domain?

François Audouze
No. In Bordeaux, you cannot. In Burgundy, you buy when you have allocations. I have some allocations, not too many, but I have some allocations. My biggest being Ramané County, of course. I buy generally from merchants or from sales people. They know me and they know that I will open the wine, so their interest is to give me good wines.

Yule Georgieva: So that's a good tip. It's good to find somebody you trust.

François Audouze: Yeah, yeah.

Yule Georgieva: From whom you can buy. Oh, is there anybody who in the wine world you've encountered who you particularly admire, who you find shares your vision, whether it's a winemaker or a writer, is there anybody else in the wine world?

François Audouze: As I knew your question, I have prepared some answer. Samantha. The first person whom I find extraordinary is Hubert de Villene, the owner of Romain Le Conti, and we became friends. So, you know, he's someone not easy to approach because he's so demanded that he's not easy to approach, but we became friends. And I will give you an anecdote just for the pleasure. In one dinner I opened a Richebourg 39 Romani Conti. The perfume was so fantastic, I said this is impossible because 39 is not such a great year, so I phoned Aubert de Villeneuve and I told him, Aubert, this 39 is so fantastic, how is it possible? And Hubert told me, could you look at the label of your wine and if you can read Vieilles Vignes Francaises non reconstituées, it is a prephiloxaic parcel of Lisbon. And he said to me, if you have that, you have a fortune. And I look at the label and I read Vieilles Vins Francaises, non repostitue, and I tell him, for the fortune, I'm sorry, but I have opened the bottle. So we are very, very close friends. So I can call him for every wine that I'm the one in the world who writes better on wine. He says that to me and there is a video in which he says that. And it is my preferred person in wine. I would say, I don't find my notes. I like very much Alexandre de Lursalus, who was the former owner of Ikem. I've done many, many nice Ikem with him, and he introduced me to the world of Bordeaux. Then, of course, a God for me is Michael Bortens who died recently, who was the expert of Christie's, who has drunk more wine than I have done. one day we were at a dinner together and I asked him, what is your older Bordeaux that you have drank? And he says to me, I don't know exactly, but it could be a 1640 something. Oh my goodness. I found one that I had drank, that he had not drank,

but it was not so easy.

So he is a God for me. And the first person that I would mention is Michel Betain. Michel Betain is the French journalist who is a genius. And I have drank many times with him. And I'm completely astonished by his knowledge, his way of talking about things. He is a fantastic guy. So these four persons, but my God is over the hill.

Yule Georgieva: Hopefully he listens to this podcast and he hears this.

François Audouze: But you know, for example, Romain de Conti, I've drank 58 vintages different. So I think not many people have explored Romaneconti as I did. In the last 20 years, I've drank more than 600 bottles of Romaneconti. So it is my dream wine.

Yule Georgieva: Yes. Well, there's only, I think, 6,000 bottles made each year. So not many people have the opportunity to open it. And unfortunately, many people don't, right? They trade it, they invest, they don't.

François Audouze: Yeah, yeah. Which is a bad thing, yes.

Yule Georgieva: You're happy to pull the cork as Obed knows.

François Audouze: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it belongs to my trip in the world of wine. I want to explore everything I want to, but my favorite, of course, Romaneco tea. Then it is the champagne, the wine of champagne, old champagne. I've drunk probably all the champagne of Salon after including 43, since 43, all the vintages. Dom Pérignon, I've drunk probably all the vintages since 29. So it belongs to my trip in the world of wine to have drunk everything. But there is no limit. That's a nice way to think of it as a journey, as your trip.

Yule Georgieva: Yeah, it's a journey. Sorry?

François Audouze: I will give you an image which I use sometimes. Imagine you are on a strand in front of the sea. On the beach. You are on the beach and you see in front of you the sea. If you have drunk wines of only age only 20 years or 25 years, of this sea you see only the four or five first waves. then you ignore that behind that, there is a complete world of waves, which are the waves of the old wines, which is a world which everybody should try to visit. You see what I mean?

Yule Georgieva: And for me, it is very important. If you don't want you to get away from that philosophy, but can you maybe give us a little bit more insight into what happens to white wines and red wines and sweet wines as they age? Because you told us so nicely about champagne. So for instance, that 1844 Bordeaux that you had, what was that like? What happens to wines at that age?

François Audouze: The 1845 is something special. It was a Prephyloxerae. And all the wines of Prephyloxerae are fantastic because they have a complexity which is due to the fact that the vines had more than 1,000 years of plantation. So they give a complexity which is unique and they have kept their property. But it was replanted by American vines, you know, and the non-pephyloxeric are very nice too. In red wines, there is a continuity, Old wine is more constricted, more balanced. Sometimes I say a young wine is a flint. You see what I mean?

A stone with angles. And old wine is a pebble. You see what I mean? It's rounded, soft. All is integrated and it is fantastic. So for red wine, easy. If I open for you a 28 Burgundy, you will understand immediately. For white wine, it's more complicated because so many people say, oh, it is Malheurise. When I listen to Malheurise, I should take my gun because they don't understand that there is an evolution. And this evolution makes a different wine. So the wine, you can say I don't like old white wine, I accept that. Because you have the freshness in white wine, which is lost in an old wine. But old wines, you know, when I drank, I tell you, when I drank the Montrachet 1865. I had my glass and it is as if the world did not exist around me. I was alone with the glass, alone with my sensations. And nobody, it was in a room, nobody existed. I was alone. And it was incredible because I had a perfect wine. A perfect wine is when you cannot imagine that it could be better, that it has attained a status of total perfection. And so this had the same sensation with Hermitage La Chapelle 61, which is considered as the greatest wine in the world. And I have drunk several times, but once I had the same sensation. I am alone in the world and I am with this wine? Drink it, understand it. So easy for red wine, more complicated for white wine. And for champagne, you must accept that you are in another world. And for sweet wine, it is easy because the oldest, the best. There is one rule, the oldest the best. So if you have the chance to explore an older it will be always better than the young, always.

Yule Georgieva: Good, good advice. Well, on that, is there any other advice you would give either young collectors getting started or the established collectors in our universe? Anything else you So, for example, the constitution of the SNR.

François Audouze: What I would say is the approach of one of your members. Do not stress. Relax. Do what you want. Don't be nervous about what you should do. Do what you want. For example, I say, what is my buying process? Imagine a meadow in spring. You have a meadow in spring. And there is a butterfly who comes on a flower.

Yule Georgieva: Why this flower?

François Audouze: Why? My buying process is like the butterfly on a meadow. I buy because I wanted to buy. And should I explain why? I don't know, but I buy. You see, be relaxed, be relaxed, buy when you want, buy when you feel that you would like. For example, if you have at the moment a passion for Chateauneuf, I love Hermitage. So I will buy, but I need to have a sign of the wine which says, buy me. You understand what I mean? So my advice is be relaxed, be relaxed. You have no obligation, you have to construct a cellar to fit with any situation. For example, the friends who come at the late moment, you must have a champagne ready to be opened. You must have a red wine that you can open at any time. For example, I love Vega Sicilia Unico, I have always a Vega Sicilia Unico ready to be open for any reason. So you must think of strategies, but be relaxed. That is for me extremely important.

Yule Georgieva: And of course, learn by experience, learn by design.

François Audouze: Experience, yeah. And do not consider that you will be judged or that you have to judge. Enjoy. Wine is a subject of passion, not of knowledge.

Yule Georgieva: Well, I think that's a wonderful note on which to end. So thank you again so much, Francois. I hope we do this again and maybe live as a tasting with some guests or we can invite them to join you in France if they make it to one of your wine dinners. I'm sure I would love to join you.

François Audouze: Tell your members to follow me on Instagram because, you know, I'm relaxed on Instagram and people adore that. 40,000 followers, not bad. Well, for that, can you tell us what your Instagram handle is and your website so people can find you?

Yule Georgieva: François, without the C being something.

François Audouze: François, Odeuze, Odeuze, in one word. Okay. We'll put that as well in the write-up so people can see it written. Then your website? My website is winedinners.com,

Yule Georgieva: wine, the small slash,

François Audouze: and dinners with two N, dinners.com. I have a blog, a heavy blog, with 38,000 pictures with 17,000 wines described, which is AcademieDesVinsAnciens.org. In one word, AcademieDesVinsAnciens.org. But you know, if you make my name, if you put my name on Google, François Oduze, you find all that on Google. And on Wikipedia, you have also all the links. Well, we'll make sure to put the links in the bottom of the YouTube video and in the podcast as well. It was a pleasure to talk with you.

Yule Georgieva: So lovely, François, as always. Thank you for all of this information. I'm very inspired to go put my wines away and not touch them for 50 years. Yes, and we will share it at that time. Excellent. All right. Thank you so much. Excellent. All right. Thank you so much.

François Audouze: Bye. Bye.